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	<title>Comments on: How Many Revisions Are Enough?</title>
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		<title>By: Laurster</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough/#comment-48182</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2011 07:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough#comment-48182</guid>
		<description>I used to work for a school where the head was renowned for repeatedly &#039;red-penning&#039; work given to her by staff (performance management docs, press releases, web site text etc), all the time. It didn&#039;t matter if it was perfect; work would be returned littered with red changes and subjective comments. One day, after getting something back for the third time, i gave it back unchanged. You guessed it, she didn&#039;t notice.
Lesson? There isn&#039;t one! I just thought I would share my own experience of re-writing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to work for a school where the head was renowned for repeatedly &#8216;red-penning&#8217; work given to her by staff (performance management docs, press releases, web site text etc), all the time. It didn&#8217;t matter if it was perfect; work would be returned littered with red changes and subjective comments. One day, after getting something back for the third time, i gave it back unchanged. You guessed it, she didn&#8217;t notice.<br />
Lesson? There isn&#8217;t one! I just thought I would share my own experience of re-writing.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura Kinoshita</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough/#comment-35095</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura Kinoshita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 01:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough#comment-35095</guid>
		<description>For the record, I just completed a project with nine chapters, co-written by a committee of 30 people, with about 19 revisions for each chapter. Not including front matter, back matter, glossary, etc. 

Before this project, the maximum number of revisions I had ever seen was 8 or 9. I thought &quot;unlimited revisions&quot; was a safe bet. 

never again ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, I just completed a project with nine chapters, co-written by a committee of 30 people, with about 19 revisions for each chapter. Not including front matter, back matter, glossary, etc. </p>
<p>Before this project, the maximum number of revisions I had ever seen was 8 or 9. I thought &#8220;unlimited revisions&#8221; was a safe bet. </p>
<p>never again &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Scope Creep and SMART Freelancing &#124; Men With Pens</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough/#comment-30146</link>
		<dc:creator>Scope Creep and SMART Freelancing &#124; Men With Pens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough#comment-30146</guid>
		<description>[...] What I am questioning is a wicked little freelancer money-suck that runs rampant in business. It sneaks in when you aren’t looking. It slowly drains you and you don’t even realize it. It’s the creature that turns every profitable project into a total loss. And all of you have had this beast feed off your business at one time or another. It’s called scope creep. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] What I am questioning is a wicked little freelancer money-suck that runs rampant in business. It sneaks in when you aren’t looking. It slowly drains you and you don’t even realize it. It’s the creature that turns every profitable project into a total loss. And all of you have had this beast feed off your business at one time or another. It’s called scope creep. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Cuninghame</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough/#comment-2140</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Cuninghame</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough#comment-2140</guid>
		<description>Hi James

What I&#039;m getting at is that you need an agreed, written brief before you start writing. If the client doesn&#039;t supply one you need to write one for them.

I start each job with a brief client questionnaire to establish the vital facts. In fact I have 2 questionnaires: one for their initial inquiry, which I use to write the proposal, and then on to establish the vital facts once the client has paid a deposit.

I then create an outline/brief which defines the paramaters of the job e.g. target audience, content, tone of the copy, etc., which I&#039;ll get the client to sign off.

I don&#039;t do this every time, but I often do it with first time clients or if there&#039;s any ambiguity (in my mind) about what&#039;s required.

As for making the client&#039;s life easy... Well I&#039;m all for making the client&#039;s life easy. But the reality is, if the client wants copy that gets results then they have to make some effort to supply you with quality &quot;raw ingredients&quot; i.e. information about their prospects, market, products, competitors, past marketing efforts, etc.

I find a questionnaire is the most efficient way to uncover this information. To expedite the process I send the (second) questionnaire in an email and do an interview to collect the answers. I record this interview because when you get people talking about their business they&#039;ll often give you fantastic nuggets which you can incorporate in your copy. If you do this right, 80% of your work is done. Now all you have to do is knock it up into a first draft.

Clients who haven&#039;t worked with a copywriter before often don&#039;t realise that they&#039;ll have to make a significant input. They&#039;re more likely to be the ones that want you to do it all for them because you&#039;re the professional. If you ask, &quot;What&#039;s your target market?&quot; and they say, &quot;Everybody&quot; you know you&#039;re in for a lot of work.

That&#039;s why I get prospects to complete a questionnaire before I give a quote. It helps:
1. Weed out clients who will be difficult to deal with
2. Helps you gauge how much work will be required - it&#039;s a lot easier to write copy for marketing-savvy clients than ones who are producing their first website
3. Make you look more organised and professional - you have a system
4. Build committment to you - once they&#039;ve made an effort to complete your questionnaire they&#039;ve got some skin in the game (i.e. they&#039;re less likely to be tire kickers).

Cheers

Charles</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi James</p>
<p>What I&#8217;m getting at is that you need an agreed, written brief before you start writing. If the client doesn&#8217;t supply one you need to write one for them.</p>
<p>I start each job with a brief client questionnaire to establish the vital facts. In fact I have 2 questionnaires: one for their initial inquiry, which I use to write the proposal, and then on to establish the vital facts once the client has paid a deposit.</p>
<p>I then create an outline/brief which defines the paramaters of the job e.g. target audience, content, tone of the copy, etc., which I&#8217;ll get the client to sign off.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t do this every time, but I often do it with first time clients or if there&#8217;s any ambiguity (in my mind) about what&#8217;s required.</p>
<p>As for making the client&#8217;s life easy&#8230; Well I&#8217;m all for making the client&#8217;s life easy. But the reality is, if the client wants copy that gets results then they have to make some effort to supply you with quality &#8220;raw ingredients&#8221; i.e. information about their prospects, market, products, competitors, past marketing efforts, etc.</p>
<p>I find a questionnaire is the most efficient way to uncover this information. To expedite the process I send the (second) questionnaire in an email and do an interview to collect the answers. I record this interview because when you get people talking about their business they&#8217;ll often give you fantastic nuggets which you can incorporate in your copy. If you do this right, 80% of your work is done. Now all you have to do is knock it up into a first draft.</p>
<p>Clients who haven&#8217;t worked with a copywriter before often don&#8217;t realise that they&#8217;ll have to make a significant input. They&#8217;re more likely to be the ones that want you to do it all for them because you&#8217;re the professional. If you ask, &#8220;What&#8217;s your target market?&#8221; and they say, &#8220;Everybody&#8221; you know you&#8217;re in for a lot of work.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why I get prospects to complete a questionnaire before I give a quote. It helps:<br />
1. Weed out clients who will be difficult to deal with<br />
2. Helps you gauge how much work will be required &#8211; it&#8217;s a lot easier to write copy for marketing-savvy clients than ones who are producing their first website<br />
3. Make you look more organised and professional &#8211; you have a system<br />
4. Build committment to you &#8211; once they&#8217;ve made an effort to complete your questionnaire they&#8217;ve got some skin in the game (i.e. they&#8217;re less likely to be tire kickers).</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
<p>Charles</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough/#comment-2142</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 12:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough#comment-2142</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s some good pointers on  how to handle negative feedback that ties in with revision requests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s some good pointers on  how to handle negative feedback that ties in with revision requests.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough/#comment-2141</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough#comment-2141</guid>
		<description>@ Charles â€“ You&#039;ve put up some very valuable tips and I sat here nodding as I youâ€™re your comments. Gut feeling is very important. Listen to it, people. Charles is right. No matter how good the money is, no matter how attractive the deal, no matter how persuasive the client, if it doesn&#039;t feel right, don&#039;t do it. We learned this one the hard way (A few times. I have a tendency to respond to anyone with, &quot;We can do that.&quot;)

Time revision was a good pointer to bring up. We&#039;ve been caught here too â€“ three months lapse, and the work landed back on our desk for revision.

The draft outline signoff process is an interesting idea. High-caliber programming firms use something similar when they apply the XP process to their methodology. I&#039;m not sure if I understand how this will work in your favor to increase clients by making their life easier, though, or how you&#039;d apply it. Expand for me?

As for guarantees, I see you&#039;ve picked up on what I&#039;ve put forth in my post â€“ absolute security and no risk for the client. In my eyes, it&#039;s the only guarantee that will erase any doubt in the client&#039;s mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Charles â€“ You&#8217;ve put up some very valuable tips and I sat here nodding as I youâ€™re your comments. Gut feeling is very important. Listen to it, people. Charles is right. No matter how good the money is, no matter how attractive the deal, no matter how persuasive the client, if it doesn&#8217;t feel right, don&#8217;t do it. We learned this one the hard way (A few times. I have a tendency to respond to anyone with, &#8220;We can do that.&#8221;)</p>
<p>Time revision was a good pointer to bring up. We&#8217;ve been caught here too â€“ three months lapse, and the work landed back on our desk for revision.</p>
<p>The draft outline signoff process is an interesting idea. High-caliber programming firms use something similar when they apply the XP process to their methodology. I&#8217;m not sure if I understand how this will work in your favor to increase clients by making their life easier, though, or how you&#8217;d apply it. Expand for me?</p>
<p>As for guarantees, I see you&#8217;ve picked up on what I&#8217;ve put forth in my post â€“ absolute security and no risk for the client. In my eyes, it&#8217;s the only guarantee that will erase any doubt in the client&#8217;s mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Cuninghame</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough/#comment-2137</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Cuninghame</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 06:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough#comment-2137</guid>
		<description>Wow! What a great post and thread. I&#039;ve thought about this issue a lot over the years. I&#039;d like to share a few tactics that have worked for me:

If you have a gut feeling at the first meeting that the client is going to be difficult, ALWAYS pass on the job. When I was new to freelancing and desperate for clients, if I intuited the client was a muppet I would add a &quot;tax&quot; onto my fee to cover the hassles that were bound to ensue. But it never made up for the added drama. I soon learnt it&#039;s better to give clueless and/or overly demanding clients a miss altogether.

What&#039;s more important than the number of revisions you offer is the time limit on them. You don&#039;t want to be doing revisions 8 months after you emailed the first draft... especially if your payment is contingent on the client signing off the final copy. I spell out in my contract how many revisions I will do and within what time limit (I also remind the client of the time limit in a header at the top of the draft copy.) I also make my final payment due after 14/30 days from the delivery of the first draft. That way I still get paid even if the client is pfaffing around with revisions.

BTW I&#039;ve always offered 2 rounds of revisions, but most clients only use one.

The trick is to get the brief locked in at the outset. It&#039;s not a bad idea to get the client (especially new ones) to sign off on a draft outline. So if they come back to you and say they want something different, you say &quot;Sure&quot; and then remind them that a change of scope incurs an extra fee.

If the client is of the &quot;I don&#039;t know what I want, but I&#039;ll know it when I see it&quot; variety, you better have that draft outline signed off or it will end in tears. Or, if they tell you this upfront, I wouldn&#039;t offer any revisions (as they&#039;re for approved customers only!). You&#039;ll find paying your hourly rate for rewrites will focus the client&#039;s mind real quick!

If the client hates your copy you have to find out EXACTLY why. You have to get them to commit to precisely what they want changed and why. Steve Slaunwhite has written an excellent article on how to do this:
http://forcopywritersonly.com/archive19.html

As for fighting for what you know is right... that&#039;s a tricky one. We all know &quot;The client is always right&quot;. But they often don&#039;t understand that every word in your draft is there to achieve a particular result. So if a client wants a change that will, in my opinion, diminish the effectiveness of the copy I have written, I will explain why I&#039;ve done it that way. But if they still want me to change it I don&#039;t argue. After all, I&#039;m a copywriter not a marketing educator.

Finally something I don&#039;t think anyone else picked up on: using unlimited revisions as a form of guarantee e.g. &quot;I guarantee you&#039;ll be happy with what I write, or I&#039;ll rewrite it, at no cost, until you are.&quot;

Last year I did a lot of research on a suitable gurantee for my copywriting business. This was the only one I thought would work. What does everybody think - is it a compelling guarantee?

Cheers

Charles</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow! What a great post and thread. I&#8217;ve thought about this issue a lot over the years. I&#8217;d like to share a few tactics that have worked for me:</p>
<p>If you have a gut feeling at the first meeting that the client is going to be difficult, ALWAYS pass on the job. When I was new to freelancing and desperate for clients, if I intuited the client was a muppet I would add a &#8220;tax&#8221; onto my fee to cover the hassles that were bound to ensue. But it never made up for the added drama. I soon learnt it&#8217;s better to give clueless and/or overly demanding clients a miss altogether.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more important than the number of revisions you offer is the time limit on them. You don&#8217;t want to be doing revisions 8 months after you emailed the first draft&#8230; especially if your payment is contingent on the client signing off the final copy. I spell out in my contract how many revisions I will do and within what time limit (I also remind the client of the time limit in a header at the top of the draft copy.) I also make my final payment due after 14/30 days from the delivery of the first draft. That way I still get paid even if the client is pfaffing around with revisions.</p>
<p>BTW I&#8217;ve always offered 2 rounds of revisions, but most clients only use one.</p>
<p>The trick is to get the brief locked in at the outset. It&#8217;s not a bad idea to get the client (especially new ones) to sign off on a draft outline. So if they come back to you and say they want something different, you say &#8220;Sure&#8221; and then remind them that a change of scope incurs an extra fee.</p>
<p>If the client is of the &#8220;I don&#8217;t know what I want, but I&#8217;ll know it when I see it&#8221; variety, you better have that draft outline signed off or it will end in tears. Or, if they tell you this upfront, I wouldn&#8217;t offer any revisions (as they&#8217;re for approved customers only!). You&#8217;ll find paying your hourly rate for rewrites will focus the client&#8217;s mind real quick!</p>
<p>If the client hates your copy you have to find out EXACTLY why. You have to get them to commit to precisely what they want changed and why. Steve Slaunwhite has written an excellent article on how to do this:<br />
<a href="http://forcopywritersonly.com/archive19.html" rel="nofollow">http://forcopywritersonly.com/archive19.html</a></p>
<p>As for fighting for what you know is right&#8230; that&#8217;s a tricky one. We all know &#8220;The client is always right&#8221;. But they often don&#8217;t understand that every word in your draft is there to achieve a particular result. So if a client wants a change that will, in my opinion, diminish the effectiveness of the copy I have written, I will explain why I&#8217;ve done it that way. But if they still want me to change it I don&#8217;t argue. After all, I&#8217;m a copywriter not a marketing educator.</p>
<p>Finally something I don&#8217;t think anyone else picked up on: using unlimited revisions as a form of guarantee e.g. &#8220;I guarantee you&#8217;ll be happy with what I write, or I&#8217;ll rewrite it, at no cost, until you are.&#8221;</p>
<p>Last year I did a lot of research on a suitable gurantee for my copywriting business. This was the only one I thought would work. What does everybody think &#8211; is it a compelling guarantee?</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
<p>Charles</p>
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		<title>By: Harry</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough/#comment-2143</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:02:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough#comment-2143</guid>
		<description>I just found Jurgen Wolff&#039;s blog and discovered this post &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://timetowrite.blogs.com/weblog/2007/12/what-to-do-when.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;What to Do When You Get Feedback You Don&#039;t Agree With&lt;/a&gt;&quot; In it he says about difficult people:

&lt;em&gt;&quot;...If they suggest something that makes the project better, make the change and be grateful; if they suggest something that is neither better nor worse, just different, make the change and shut up; if they suggest something that makes it worse - fight! Save your ammunition for the important battles, give way on the unimportant ones.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just found Jurgen Wolff&#8217;s blog and discovered this post &#8220;<a href="http://timetowrite.blogs.com/weblog/2007/12/what-to-do-when.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">What to Do When You Get Feedback You Don&#8217;t Agree With</a>&#8221; In it he says about difficult people:</p>
<p><em>&#8220;&#8230;If they suggest something that makes the project better, make the change and be grateful; if they suggest something that is neither better nor worse, just different, make the change and shut up; if they suggest something that makes it worse &#8211; fight! Save your ammunition for the important battles, give way on the unimportant ones.&#8221;</em></p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough/#comment-2127</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough#comment-2127</guid>
		<description>@ Misti - We usually offer unlimited revisions and it&#039;s backfired on us with exactly three clients in all our time writing, which is a very small percentage. Most freelancers we know offer one or two. We limit revisions on some jobs, though, when it&#039;s in our best interest to do so or when the project is an extremely subjective one.

@ Melissa - iI have a story. I started to write it as a comment but it became too long, so it&#039;ll be a blog post :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Misti &#8211; We usually offer unlimited revisions and it&#8217;s backfired on us with exactly three clients in all our time writing, which is a very small percentage. Most freelancers we know offer one or two. We limit revisions on some jobs, though, when it&#8217;s in our best interest to do so or when the project is an extremely subjective one.</p>
<p>@ Melissa &#8211; iI have a story. I started to write it as a comment but it became too long, so it&#8217;ll be a blog post <img src='http://menwithpens.ca/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Harry</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough/#comment-2126</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 08:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/how-many-revisions-are-enough#comment-2126</guid>
		<description>@Misti: There really is no right or wrong answer to how many revisions a writer should provide. You need to do what you feel comfortable with and make sure you&#039;re not being taken advantage of by the client. If it works for you, it is perfect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Misti: There really is no right or wrong answer to how many revisions a writer should provide. You need to do what you feel comfortable with and make sure you&#8217;re not being taken advantage of by the client. If it works for you, it is perfect.</p>
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