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Is Charging More the Right Thing to Do?
Note: This post is our personal opinion and will most likely set our blog on fire with heated debate and criticism for its controversial content. We ask that all comments remain polite and respectful at all times, no matter what your views may be.
“That’s all you charge?” The startled words came back at me. “You’re kidding me.”
A peer and I were playing ‘I’ll show you mine if you show me yours’ with our rates. She’d been sure we charged far more for our services. She was shocked to learn the truth.
This surprised me.
Rates for web services like design, writing and more are often an area of great debate. Many people (including ourselves) encourage low-paid web workers to set better rates.
But what is the ideal rate? What should we all be charging?
Some people suggest a minimal rate, stating you should accept nothing less. Some suggest doubling rates out of the blue. Just like that. Just because. Some propose flexible rates and some propose rates based on who your client is and the person’s ability to pay.
Now, I’m all for people charging what they feel their skills are worth. I’m all for earning a good living and having equitable compensation for the work we perform.
But the shocked reaction of my peer and her concern that we were selling ourselves short found me defensively muddling over the rates we charge.
Putting Yourself Out of Reach
I am not – I repeat, not – for high rates. I never have been. Since day one, Harry and I have had a vision for our business based on our personal values and beliefs.
We want fair compensation for our work based on our skill levels, abilities and experience. We also want to offer people quality services at affordable rates.
“But you’re the Men with Pens! You could charge way more than that – easily,” my peer stated, and I found myself blinking in reaction. We could charge more, yes.
But why would we? Is that right? Is that fair?
Harry and I aren’t new at this business. We aren’t rookies. We just fell into high demand because we became somewhat of a celebrity duo – nothing else about us has changed.
Does our popularity allow us to jack our rates and set ourselves out of people’s reach? We’re the Pen Men, after all – we can almost start our own trademark. I can just see it now: “A Men with Pens Design”.
Hold on. Promoting an “Original Men with Pens Design” does sound nice, but does that mean we should raise our rates accordingly?
No. I don’t think doing so is right or fair. Part of what sets us apart is that we understand budgets. Not everyone can afford expensive work. I don’t like to pay extra just for a name brand myself.
We take pride in finding the middle ground and solutions that let us earn a good income but that also put our services within reach. People shouldn’t have to spend a small fortune to have a site that looks good or content that reads well.
What’s wrong with that?
Nothing. But I suddenly find myself defending lower rates instead of higher ones. Am I in the minority? If you had the chance to triple your rates because of sudden fame or popularity, would you do it?
I’m not sure popularity justifies high wages. Sure, we’re Men with Pens. We do rockin’ work. We’re good at our jobs. We’re conscientious, caring and friendly. And we have fair wages.
Those who just jack their rates because they can get away with it seem to be dabbling in an unethical business practice.
The Alternatives: McDonalds
When Harry and I began working on the Web, we needed to set our rates. The wide range of fees for similar products and services out there left us scratching our heads. Are 500 words worth $5 or $150? Is a banner worth $20 or $200?
We looked to authorities such as www.writers.ca and used online salary tools. We examined the rates those sites suggested and what other workers received for the same services.
We took a look at the alternatives, too. The web may be international, but our local economies drive our financial needs. So where would we work and what would we earn if all this dried up and disappeared tomorrow?
That raised interesting questions. What do other people earn? What’s a good salary? What isn’t? What income do I need to live well? What does Harry need? What are our local, regional and national economies? What’s a good salary in Ontario? In B.C.? In Las Vegas? In Florida?
The Canadian minimum wage is around $8.50 and in the United States, it fluctuates from between $5 and $8. A middle-income family in Canada earns about $25,000. In Nevada, $20 an hour is pretty good.
And yet on the web, you have prices that range from $2 to $2,000 for the same work we do. Puzzling? You betcha.
We decided to choose rates that met our financial needs and that stayed within suggested industry guidelines. We also tried to price our services to meet market value. We set our ‘don’t go below’ rate, and we remembered to price ourselves within reach of most people.
Sleeping Well at Night
During our number crunching, we looked at how long it took us to complete a project based on our personal speed, skill levels, experience and talents. We know that pricing by the hour is bad for our business, but we still had to figure out our hourly income to know where we stood at the end of the day.
Both of us felt quite strongly about taking an ethical stand. We needed to feel comfortable with the rates we charged. We needed to know that we’d done the right thing, not the lucrative thing.
But we can, indeed, do the lucrative thing if we so choose. We find ourselves in the position of being able to raise our rates if we’d like – easily. We’ve looked around, too, to see what others are charging for the same services we provide.
We’ve noticed that some services worth about two hours of time are going for $250 – and we charge one fifth of that amount. What is justifying the huge difference in rates? Not skills, not experience… what?
Personally, both Harry and I feel sick at the thought of charging so much for so little. We both felt that demanding that kind of money for our services was unfair to clients and compromised our integrity, values and beliefs.
Does that mean the person charging $250 is unethical? Not at all. But it does make me wonder where the person’s values lie.
Who Do We Think We Are?
When the subject of rates comes up, I often think of my sister. She’s a crown prosecutor and spent years studying law. She has decades of experience putting war criminals behind bars – and she earns less than many writers and designers.
There’s something very wrong with that.
Who the hell am I to demand higher wages than a lawyer? Are my services worth more than an accountant? A doctor? A teacher? A firefighter? All these people are paid less than many web workers out there.
I’m a writer, for god’s sake. Yes, I’m a very good one, but let’s be realistic. I won’t die on the job or save lives or put war criminals behind bars. Who am I to be paid so much for my work?
Harry feels the same way. He flatly told me that he has a ‘don’t go below’ rate and that he also has a ‘don’t go above’ rate as well. He wouldn’t accept a job that pays more than he feels is right.
Neither would I.
Value for the Customer
“You have to look at the value for the client,” my peer argued. “It’s worth a lot to them. Your work lets them make more money. Charge accordingly.”
It’s a valid argument, but I disagree. It is not about what my work is worth to someone else. It is about what it is worth to me and what I feel is fair compensation.
She suggested that I charge more, because corporate clients have more money to spare and needed to reach more people. She mentioned that I could offer discounts to those I felt deserved a break.
I disagree with that as well. Should a corporate client building a website pay more for my words than the hobbyist blogger who wants a nice welcome page?
Having different rates based on your client’s ability to pay is price discrimination. It’s not an ethical business practice. When you walk into a grocery store, you aren’t scanned for your background and income history to see whether you should pay more for your apple.
But do you scan clients like that? Be honest. We all have “annoyance tax”, don’t we?
We try to maintain a policy of “all people are equal in our eyes”. We don’t take bribes from a client so he can move to the head of the line. We don’t charge corporate clients more than hobbyists. If Microsoft came knocking at our door and asked us to work for them, they would pay the same rate as John Doe who lives next door.
This is right. This is business integrity.
Paying for Premium
We aren’t saying that those who do command double and triple our rates aren’t ethical. Let’s get that clear, before someone torches our blog. Some providers set justifiable rates based on their skill levels, experience, abilities, talents and beliefs.
That’s good. I am not challenging these people and their rates. I wish them very well and congratulate them on their monetary achievement.
Many people charge premium rates for special work. There’s nothing wrong with that, either. I get that you pay more for something exclusive, something special. I know why my Nike running shoes cost me a lot and I know why I pay that amount, too.
I’m also fully aware of the law of supply and demand and the issues of pricing around that. I understand that perception and pricing go hand in hand.
I know full well that we could charge premium rates – and for some things, the special things, the things only we can do, our rates are higher to reflect that uniqueness. There are reasons and strategies for everyone’s pricing, our own included.
But there are many services we perform that are banal. They are truly nothing. Many people offer the same service. Why should we inflate the price just because the Pen Men are doing the job?
There is no reason. There is nothing special about these tasks. Sure, the skills are special, but they’re not that damned special.
There is nothing shocking about not jacking our prices. We’re something of a small superstar and could get away with it, but we choose not to.We don’t have rock bottom rates, but there’s something right about refusing to increase our prices for certain tasks just because we’ve become the hot thing of the moment.
I think it’s completely arrogant to say, “If you want a piece of me, you gotta pay the price.” I’m cocky, but I’m not that much of an arrogant ass.
Abusing the Situation
We see people setting high rates arbitrarily – they see their buddies doing it. They see other providers doing it. Unfortunately, buyers don’t always know the difference and they agree to pay high rates.
We don’t feel that just because you can get away with high rates doesn’t mean you should.
What also bothers me are the many providers that are just plain greedy. They’re taking advantage of a situation. They screw people. They’re about the money – that’s all.
You wouldn’t believe the amount of remedial work we receive from clients who’ve been burned. Over half of our clients –50% of people who contact us – were taken for a ride by someone who overcharged and who did shoddy work.
And we have the joy of cleaning up their tangled mess.
Even worse? These clients come to us needing help, and they’ve had their wallets drained. They have no money left to correct the situation.
This isn’t right, people.
Another problem? These clients who’ve been overcharged are mistrustful and they’re gun shy. Deep down inside, they’ve lost faith in people. They just want to learn to trust again. We retain more clients because of our honesty than anything else.
I feel very strongly about providers who set high rates for a service that takes a couple of hours, especially when that service isn’t anything artistic or special. Nothing justifies those kinds of high rates.
It’s like Sears selling an MDF sofa for 3 million dollars – something’s wrong with that.
I think clients – no matter who they are – deserve the respect of fair treatment. They shouldn’t be gouged by high prices. They should be told up front that a job is a small one or an easy one or that it’s not a big deal.
There’s something to be said for honesty and transparency.
I also think that Harry and I deserve the respect of making the decision to be an affordable service provider. The fact that we specifically refuse to jack our rates should reflect on us positively, not negatively.
We want to make money, yes. But we want to be an accessible business within reach of those who want or need our services. We believe in honest and integrity. We believe in balanced values, strong morals, and practicing good business ethics.
There’s not a damned thing wrong with that.
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I can’t POSSIBLY read all those comments, so if I’m redundant, please forgive me..
I’ve been a lot of things in my time – sailor, actor, driver, etc.. and I’ve learned a lot of lessons. What I’ve learned is that you’re absolutely on the money (har!) with this assessment. People who find their personal value in what they charge for their services have been looking in the wrong place. I knew a guy who sold RVs; actually he was (still is) the top RV salesman in the US. He made a crapload of money, and never tired of reminding anyone who’d listen. One time I complimented him on the nice wheels on his Escalade.. “they oughta be nice, they cost me six grand!” He’d always tell you how much something cost, if you were dumb enough to compliment him on the object. This included his ties, cars, lunch, tickets to next weeks game (best seats, of course) and pretty much everything else.
What people didn’t know about the RV salesman is that he’s a miserable sot.. divorced and drunk most of the time, he can barely get any respect from his two teen sons and his ex hates him passionately.
He’s not the only man I’ve met who’s in this state of being. A huge bank account and cash flow is not necessarily synonymous with personal worth, but many think it is. To me, and it’s just my opinion, it’s in WHAT you do and how you do it. Monetary recompense should be a much lower priority, but we all know it’s not. I may be off the money here (HAR!) in talking about self-worth rather than precisely what should be charged for services, but I think it all ties in. Charge what you need to, and not a penny more, whether it be a national bank chain or Billy Bob Smith from Alabama. Therein lies your personal worth.
On a final note.. years ago when I was performing with a theatrical troupe, we all went to Edinburgh for the Festival Fringe one year. We were backed by someone who’d invited us and, not being there to make money, we didn’t charge for the first night of performances during out two week run, and we had about ten people in the house.
Someone suggested that people must think it’s a really crappy show if it’s free, so we started charging the equivalent of five dollars a head, and the next night we had a full house, which continued for the rest of the run. But we didn’t charge fifty dollars a head, even though it was a damn good show.
Balance – and perception.
RhodesTer’s last blog post..Sunday Snapshots
@Melissa,
I don’t know if we’re neighbors, or not. You can leave me a message via tweet if you want to find out.
I think what I listed actually applies to a lot of U.S. cities. In fact, for a few cities such as New York City, I think that the middle class would start even higher.
It’s an urban lifestyle thing…
Laura Spencer’s last blog post..It’s Okay to Be Yourself (Web Content Thursdays)
@Laura: I grew up in NY and that was one of the reasons I left. I tried finding an apartment and the best I could afford would have been a very small, cramped studio apartment (read: one room), probably in somebody’s attic or basement.
When I left there, I was making close to 30K a year. It took me 6 years here in Vegas to get back to that rate again before I started working with James. Pricing was difficult for us because his cost of living was so much different than mine. He couldn’t believe that $25 an hour was the low end of the scale for most designers.
@Rhodes & Kellye: Yes, perception plays a big part. Some people see a low price, or even “free” and think it’s not worth it. I tried to say this to James in the beginning, and it took him a long time to understand it – even though he’s the type of guy to be easily impressed by expensive items.
@Wendi: We try to work with everyone’s budget. Nothing makes me happier and at peace than knowing someone who doesn’t have a lot to spare is pleased with the product’s end result and they’ve gotten quality. That feeling is priceless.
I’ve always lived by the rule “Don’t go cheap, don’t go expensive either. Buy the very best you can afford at the time.” Quality is everything.
I like your approach very much, Men. Paying the bills, and eating nutritionally sound meals a couple times a day, and sleeping under a solid roof – these are good things, yes. These good things cost money, yes. But when you’re self-employed for the long haul, money is just one of many necessities for survival. Those who price themselves out of reach of the majority, for example, are likely to lose out on a chance of truly interesting jobs – the kind of jobs that make you feel like you’re justified in sucking up your share of the world’s oxygen for another day. Highly paid treadmill work or living-wage work that interests and challenges you, and has the bonus of feeling like you’re standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the ‘little guy’ to create something of worth? I made my choice.
Okay just to stir it up a bit, here’s a little article on the Veblen effect. You are talking about services for the most part in this post , not goods, but some of you may find this interesting. It is a real factor in pricing strategies. (Don’t read the comments following. They are dull and boring).
http://www.theartnewspaper.com/article.asp?id=7645
Janice C Cartier’s last blog post..The Book Of Tea
@Janice – Yes, I can’t find the exact stats right now, but it is something like 80 or 90% of the population live within 100 miles of the border. And all along that border runs the Trans-Canada Highway from BC to Newfoundland.
@Kelly – The parenthesis is my interpretation, not a quote from Ben Franklin directly. You might have misread my comment as well — money is not a measure of “worth” but “self-worth” — an important distinction in this case.
If money is a measure of personal industry, then by extrapolation the more money you have made, the more industrious you are (according to his theory). Ben Franklin constantly measured how “good” he was by measuring how industrious he was. He kept his own weekly ledger (of sorts — it’s been almost 20 years since I read Franklin so you probably know better what he called it — a diary?) marking down not only how much he made and spent, but also times he was lazy, times he committed one of the seven deadly sins, etc.
Since this was all done in the spirit of self-improvement, I take that to mean he was measuring his own self-worth. But I could be wrong — again, entirely my interpretation.
~Graham
Graham Strong’s last blog post..Document Everything
Setting rates is a difficult matter. For example, I look at your $25 drive-by service, and I thing “man, what a bargain.” Since I have been running this Writing Blog Madness tournament of mine, I have been reviewing site after site, and it takes me about four hours to evaluate and write about two competing blogs. Logically then, it would take me about two hours to do a similar evaluation of a single site. If I decided to do this as a service, and charge what you charge, I would make about $12.50 an hour. I don’t want to discuss my pay, but suffice to say that this amount is far below my hourly pay at my current full-time job. So, as a potential customer, I am glad that you charge so little, but as a potential competitor, the price is too low for me to compete with. I guess that works in your favor.
John Hewitt’s last blog post..Game 20: #6 Seed Crime Fiction Dossier Versus #7 Seed The Writing Journey
Graham,
I see where you were going with that thought. I’d still say work was the yardstick of worth to him, and that money was a byproduct, but now I’m being picky. Thanks!
Until later,
Kelly
Kelly’s last blog post..Click Here for Details, Honestly
@John: It is a difficult matter. The drive-bys are what we do everyday because we constantly have to evaluate the sites we’re customizing. We’ve gotten pretty fast with all the practice.
I think your tournament is a stroke of sheer genius and just wish we had thought of it first! Hope you can do it every year.
The thing is, we’re just looking at the cosmetics and functionality of a blog, and not digging as deeply as you are into content and community. If a client does ask about those aspects, we help them out with it too, but it’s really a whole other kettle of fish.
I appreciate everything you’re doing with the tourney, there’s some great stuff going on there.
Wow, everyone – such fantastic comments with plenty of thought behind them. *This* is the type of discussion I live for. I’ve been reading every single one and found myself nodding with most.
It’s a tough debate and I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer – except, I feel it’s wrong to arbitrarily set a price just because without the skills, experience or know-how to back it up.
I also lean with Graham. I think most of my uncomfortable feelings have to do with the Canadian mindset. And I agree with Kelly – it’s a Gen X thing and even more so with Gen Y (and I sit smack between those two generations). Local economy factors in, and voila – we have one squirming Canadian when he sees sky-high prices for stuff that takes minutes.
I will say one thing: I don’t work with people who overcharge.
@ John – We charge far more for a full blog consult that involves in-depth analysis (and a lot less gun shooting and more diplomacy) because yes, they take a few hours.)
@ Janice – I hate maple syrup and live in the world’s largest producer of the stuff. Go figure.
@ Harry – Yes, but I’m a very picky connoisseur. I *like* my expensive stuff, but it had damned well better be justified. Like my Nikes. And I do tend to buy cost-effective over luxury. Sometimes.
@ Larry
I understand your argument, but I see two people doing the job, so even if you only do an hour apiece, the rate remains equivalent.
John Hewitt’s last blog post..Game 20: #6 Seed Crime Fiction Dossier Versus #7 Seed The Writing Journey
@ James
I would love to see a sample of what you do for a full consult.
John Hewitt’s last blog post..Game 20: #6 Seed Crime Fiction Dossier Versus #7 Seed The Writing Journey
@ John – Check your email. Sent.
Well, thankfully the blog was not torched.
I’ve been on the opposite end of charging too little and I can tell you it is a disservice to yourself and your clients. When I got smart I charged fair and competitive prices that made me feel good and helped clients value what I was offering. When you charge too little for GOOD work it is as bad as charging too much for average or good work. Some people charge $20,000 to write a sales letter but they also provide guarantees that ensure clients will get a fair ROI. At face value that $20k seems ridiculous but once you dig deeper the clients are getting more than a well written letter. There are also those who charge higher rates as demand increases allowing them to spend time only on “high-paying” jobs. I don’t judge any of those people but I also don’t charge that way. 
Fair, competitive, sane is my pricing model, and I’ve got no plans to change that…even when I become super duper famous and Oprah has me on speed dial. 
Karen
Karen Swim’s last blog post..The Long Hot Race
Fascinating piece, thrilling discussion. Nothing gets people’s cranks a-turnin’ like a discussion about rates, eh?
Obviously, you guys are good at what you do and have a passionate following. So you’ve cleared the all-things-being-equal hurdle.
Once that’s happened, I say all bets are off. Or perhaps “Whatever works for you.” I’m very, very careful about saying what I think is “right” or “wrong” for anyone but myself.
And for me? I’ve settled on what I think are comfortable rates. I prefer to work less on paid gigs to have more time to do the kind of thinking, researching, training and outside writing that I feel makes me a better, more useful person to the world. I could make a lot more cashola for my work—I did, back when I wrote TV ads, and the one pilot. What I learned was that a price was exacted for that work far, far beyond what I was being paid. We’re talking far beyond PITA charges: we’re talking “I’m getting paid by Lucifer himself for snacking on tasty morsels of my soul.”
I always try to accommodate artists where I can; in turn, I find the ones I end up accommodating add to the process immeasurably, enriching my life and knowledge bank. They are also appreciative of the work.
That said (the part about charging a reasonable amount for my services), I’m probably incapable of price gouging. And I’m not Canadian, and I live in a major metro area (L.A.–not quite as dear as NYC, but not cheap, either.) I live modestly, and enjoy it.
I will add one last thing to an already overly-long comment: I also am very free about passing people along to other excellent service providers who, for whatever reason, can charge lower fees. This is also karma. Everybody wins!
Wow, that was like reading a novel, or maybe two chapters of one.
I can only add that being in business for myself has allowed me to ascertain when someone is charging too little, making me wonder, “What do you do to pay the bills?”
If the fee is too low, then I know he or she must be subsidized by a day job, or a spouse.
Part of knowing what to charge is also knowing how much it costs to run your own business (rent, equipment, training, depreciation, insurance, permits, taxes, etc., etc.)
One great tool that helped me verify my own rates is the rates calculator over at Freelanceswitch:
http://freelanceswitch.com/rates/
It takes into account where we live, and how much our expenses are for each particular area — that’s the real way of arriving at a rate that’s right for you!
Then you can decide whether you want to be fair, fairer, or the fairest one of all when you give a potential client a quote.
Nez’s last blog post..Word Wonders
I just answered that question for a freelancer who has been charging just three cents per article:
http://thearticlewriter.com/blog/2008/04/21/the-article-writer-mailbag-take-15/
Obviously, this person isn’t charging enough and he should raise his rates. However, he is in a bit of a dilemma — how to raise rates for bargain buyers. I suggested he wouldn’t be able to and would need to eventually replace these price resistant customers with those who are willing to pay more.
@ Matt – Agreed. $0.03 a word is crazy, and most people won’t change their rates from fear of losing work. They just have to realize that they’re switching target market and that they’ll have work – just with different clients.
@ Nez – Agreed. Too low isn’t the way to go.
@ Communicatrix – Agreed. Sky-high rates equals big expectations and a lot of sweat. Many times, it isn’t worth it.
@ Karen – Ha! Fair, competitive and sane… well said.
James,
Money can’t buy me love, but how about happiness?
http://goodexperience.com/2008/04/does-money-buy-happin.php
Look where Canadians are on the chart. Cultural stuff IS at work, darnit, so I’m moving to Toronto immediately.
Later,
Kelly
Kelly’s last blog post..This Is No Occasion for Doing Nothing
Great post, James.
You know, one of the worst things a company can do that is experiencing rapid growth is jump the gun. You’ve only just begun this growth and if you immediately jacked up your rates you could run into problems. Of course if it were a necessity because of the new growth, that’s one thing.
This post makes me proud to call you guys friends. I live by the same mentality. In fact, for most of my life I’ve been doing things for free simply because I like helping people in areas I know about.
The one argument that I could point out in regards to how much you make vs. a lawyer is that life ain’t fair. Damn rap stars that shoot people and are thugs make more money than all of us put together. Also, sometimes in tip positions (like a waiter), it’s the waiter that makes more money than the manager.
Is it right, no. But it’s life.
John Hoff’s last blog post..The eVentureBiz Community Forum
James, you ignorant slut.
(Really, there just wasn’t enough heated controversy in here.)
I like this post and I like this approach, and at the same time this way of thinking is fatal for me. I’ll always overprovide, I’ll always overdeliver, and I’ll always undercharge, so I don’t need any help there. I tend to go to the other direction and put a price tag on that makes the customer think the product must not amount to much, if that’s all I’m charging for it.
All that said, though, it’s so damned refreshing to read someone who’s not all about finding suckers and squeezing every nickel out of them. I’m right on the verge of unsubscribing to Dan Kennedy’s stuff because that mentality just disgusts me.
At the end of day, for me it’s about value. Do I give more value than I take? If so, I feel good.
Sonia Simone’s last blog post..50 Things Your Customers Wish You Knew
@Sonia – well said. In connection with that, I also hate it when entrepreneurs try to make a buck and don’t really give a crap about anything else (like the environment, people’s welfare, etc.).
I have a friend who’s a different type of entrepreneur than I am. He’s always telling me, “John, you don’t have to save the world.”
Agreed – but I tell him it’s nice to know someone is not trying to take it for everything it’s worth and then some.
John Hoff’s last blog post..The eVentureBiz Community Forum
@Sonia you touched on my pet peeve. One of the reasons I never bought into the “Millionaire” movement is it was all about money and nothing about people, life, and what you value. I’m not motivated by money so it just didn’t resonate me. Of course I want to have a good life but good is different in my book. I love the quote: “Givers give, takers take.” Some of the “gurus” are takers, they ‘re in it for the money and could care less about you. I’m a giver and darn proud of being in that camp.
@ Sonia – You pretentious beeotch. And usurper of my Copyblogger throne. Show me up, will you? (You’re right. I expected flaming. I got support. What’s up with that?)
That’s my problem too. Overdeliver and undercharge. Well, no, not quite, actually. Overdeliver and charge – but I know I could get more. Is it a Canadian thing? Possibly. I would think more Canadians than Americans have the same line of thinking. But at the same time, I think it’s just a personality thing.
You’re right. It’s about value for ME. Not for the client. Me. Me, me, me. (Hey, I like the sound of that!)
I am so sick of people being arTEESTes. Speaking of which, did anyone read the Freelance Switch post today that I was SURE would bring that blog down after the crowd ravaged the post to shreds for daring to say, “Get over it.”?
@ John – I love you too, buddy. And yes, I’m a sucker for stray animals. Bet you are as well.
@ Karen – I missed a movement to be a millionaire? Crap.
@ James, Ha! Yea you missed the movement or more than likely ignored the idiots, ooops experts who told you they had the secret to fast and easy wealth for the very reasonable admission price of $35,000. What, you ignored them? Didn’t you pay attention when they said you would be stupid for not taking advantage of this once in a lifetime opportunity? I mean, really they even highlighted it in yellow for you!
@ Karen – Ahhh, no, unfortunately. They should’ve used more glitter. I like shiny lures.
@ James, lol gillter is good. I like sparkly things. Yellow highlight – not so much.
Whoo-hoo! I’ve been off grid for a bit, and look at the explosive conversation! Another reason to love MwP.
It’s refreshing to be somewhere where people speak their mind, not say what they think will be comfortable to those reading.
Keep it coming –
Dave
@Dave, we’re looking forward to seeing what you have in store for us – and being able to have a comment party over at your new home once it is ready!
Brett Legree’s last blog post..do something crazy.
A fascinating read, and especially so with the comments. My thoughts on the matter are covered well above – as others said: charge a reasonable rate that you can justify – to your client, to the general public, and most of all – to yourself. end of story.
Thanks to all involved for such a great conversation on this.
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Well thought out and argued points, but I feel there are a few things missing that come in to play when selecting your rates.
Value in terms of return. If you have confidence in terms of what you provide (as I’m sure you do) you know that it will work for your clients. If you write a piece of advertising copy for $500 and it goes on to generate over hundreds of thousands of sales for the company you wrote it for, who’s taken advantage of whom? If you envision and develop a piece of software that will automate a manual process for business that is going to streamline employees work and save the company $10 000 wages in the first month alone what is that worth? The time it took your to build it? What about the unique creative thinking process that enabled you to come up with a solution that saved them a fortune?
Your example of sears selling a sofa for three million dollars struck a very very negative cord with me. A sears sofa is a commodity. We (as an industry) don’t produce a commodity, and when you boil it down to that you’re doing a disservice to yourselves and everyone else in a creative field.
Regarding price discrimination, I’m not sure if you have done much work at the cooperate level (I literally just surfed in from another post, so I know next to nothing about you guys, other than your writing and design work is good). However, from personal experience, you charge cooperate customers more, not because they can afford it but because they make you earn it. They’ll typically expect to meet for a half to full day several times a month to discuss the nature / progress of the project you are working on for them and they are almost always more exacting in the standards and minor touches expected when doing the work. From my experience, cooperate customers are expecting to pay more, but conversely when the scope changes mid project, they expect you to get it done, rather than bill them additional.
I honestly look at it from a completely different angle than you do, so I’ll use an example from my own business picking random numbers to protect the innocent
. We have a suite of proprietary software that we’ve invested a _very_ significant amount of resources and money into over the last 4 or 5 years. I honestly and truly believe without a shadow of a doubt that this software package is worth $50 000. However, I know that most likely only 1 in 10 of my clients will have the budget to pay what I feel the software is worth. Does that make me a bad person when the other 9 times out of 10 I sell it for somewhere less than what I believe it’s worth?
Please don’t misunderstand, I really respect the position your taking, but I do feel it’s a case of good intentions missing a the important facts. Should we advocate that musicians set a rate at which their work is worth and after they make that profit, start giving away their albums at cost or free?
What we do is the same as a musician or artist, but we do it to help businesses rather than just create art and that has value beyond simply the time it takes to create the art, as if it was a candy bar you’re buying from a local convenience store.
I do applaud the integrity you’ve chosen to put forth, even if I do feel that your method may be misguided. It’s something that’s sorely lacking in the creative industry as a whole… and we too have run into clients who’ve been burned and had their trust destroyed. My own company backs everything we do with a 100% money back guarantee in the contract, that’s our way of helping to rebuild trust in people. “If we don’t give you what we promise, you get your money back.”
Out of all of this, there is one truth I think we _can_ agree on, and that’s if you aren’t happy without money, you wont’ be happy with it. If the only reason you are charging more for your work is because you want more money in your pocket at the end of the day, then you are going down the wrong road.
DaveRH´s last blog post…RH’s Opinion Sought By National Post
Hey Dave,
You bring up some good points and I appreciate your opinion. I agree with some; I disagree with some. Let me see if I can clarify a little:
First, I do certainly believe writing is a commodity and not an art. I believe that what I do for a living is a trade and that I practice learned skills and honed techniques. Sure, there’s creativity and talent, but we’re not talking about Michelangelo, here.
Read more on my views about writing as a trade here: http://menwithpens.ca/is-writing-an-art-or-a-trade I’m definitely not in the “writing is an art” camp.
Price discrimination – Yes, we do a good deal of corporate work. Our rates are the same as any other individual, however, we *do* factor in the additional time corporate clients require and the quote that we provide does often come out to higher than the hobbyist who needs a cleanup of an About Us page.
I highly agree that corporate clients make you sweat like a bastard before you even see a dime. We’re fair, yes. We don’t play pricing discrimination. But we do get compensated for every drop of sweat people squeeze, trust me.
Value and confidence – I have differing views here. Our whole business is all about helping others earn money with their business. If a piece of copy I write creates millions for someone, then good for him! My confidence level in the potential returns of working with me does not justify (I feel) a hike in rates.
There are days where 15 minutes of my time means the difference between 0 sales for someone and steady, continual, rising sales and better business. I *expect* that to be a result of my efforts, and I don’t think that a client’s success from my work means they’ve taken advantage of me. My time is paid, my efforts are paid, my skill levels are paid…
Cripes, I’d be very ashamed if they *didn’t* have success!
(Note: I may be missing your point here; it’s late and I’m tired, so feel free to say, “James, you twit, pay attention, would you?”)
You made good comments, Dave. Feel free to come back and carry on the discussion; it’s interesting!
I can’t agree with you about writing / graphic design etc. being a trade. To me it’s a business application of artistry, to avoid being stuck selling fries as the local Fast Eddie’s. I find a brilliantly conceptualized ad / website / written copy that sways people’s opinions and turns them into a customer as beautiful as any piece of art.
What is art supposed to do? When done properly, it’s supposed to move people on an emotional level. What do we do? We try to do the exact same thing, only we have a goal, to convince the individual viewing our art to become a client / buy a product.
I think the primary thing we don’t see eye to eye on is the view of creative being a commodity… and I don’t’ think I’ll be able to dissuade you from that belief, but I’m very glad that society at large does put value on creativity because I wouldn’t want to live in a world that didn’t!
All that being said, It’s great to come across a fellow Canadian in the industry who has integrity. You would not believe some of the horror stories that we’ve come across…. service bills for responses to email, companies that charged many thousands for a website that was broken and never worked and then tried to get the customer to hire them to fix their broken work and the list goes on.
DaveRH´s last blog post…RH’s Opinion Sought By National Post
@ DaveHR – Hehe, imagine poor Harry and Charlie over here, who are right there with you in the art camp. We all have to work together even though we have different opinions
I absolutely 100% respect your feelings that what we do is art. I don’t agree, but I understand your take on it (more than you may realize) and am also glad that there are those in the world that do believe this for each of us that doesn’t. They’re both good, valid opinions, just ones that don’t agree.
As for horror stories? I can relate. Some of the stuff that clients tell us about their experiences and how they ended up here asking for our help is truly, really shameful. Some people really have no business being in business, and that’s something that gets me every time.
Cheers!
Dave and James, I truly enjoyed this exchange. I see creative as both art and commodity. Buyers who hire you to write copy may appreciate you as an artist but more than likely they appreciate how that art is going to impact their bottom line objectives. The artist views life through a kaleidoscopic image and finds beauty even in the mundane. Dave, I thought your points about pricing were interesting but conversely what if you do a stellar job and external factors delivered horrible results for the client. Do you not deserve to be fairly paid for a job well done? I approach every job with the intention of making my client a star. When they appear on CNN or have a best selling book or their business skyrockets to success I am wildly excited for them, but never feel sour grapes because I only charged X amount (I realize you were not expressing bitterness, I’m simply making a point). Of course there have been a few times where I’ve kicked myself for not negotiating royalties but that’s another post!
Karen Swim´s last blog post…The Gift of Words
I wasn’t necessarily making the point to say that you rates should always be based on what the client earns from what you provide. The point was more that any type of creative work has more value than the simply just the hours invested into creating it. That’s what we have intellectual property… and yes that is grossly abused by some, but the intangible does have a tangible value in many cases.
DaveRH´s last blog post…RH’s Opinion Sought By National Post
Interesting, many think charging less is better but this might not always be the case. Anyway, it’s a great article.
“We’re the Pen Men, after all – we can almost start our own trademark.”
“We do rockin’ work. We’re good at our jobs. We’re conscientious, caring and friendly.”
“I’m a writer, for god’s sake. Yes, I’m a very good one, but let’s be realistic.”
“Why should we inflate the price just because the Pen Men are doing the job?”
“We’re something of a small superstar.”
Damn.
Huh, all of that in the same article !
“I’m cocky, but I’m not that much of an arrogant ass.”
Well, I think many readers must have found the first part of this sentence to be quite obvious (that you are cocky), but many have probably raised some serious doubts about the second one (that you are not arrogant) as well.
@ Dmitri – I think you’ve raised some serious doubts about how much of the article you read. You quoted back quotes from *other* people said to me – not quotes I said (or believe) myself. Also, you’ve obviously chosen to ignore every single place where I’ve chosen the low road over the arrogant one.
Selective perception, much?