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	<title>Comments on: Setting Writer Rates: It Costs Money to Make Money</title>
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		<title>By: The Pay Scale For Freelance Writers - What Should You Charge? &#124; Career Building Tips.html</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money/#comment-24350</link>
		<dc:creator>The Pay Scale For Freelance Writers - What Should You Charge? &#124; Career Building Tips.html</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 04:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money#comment-24350</guid>
		<description>[...] Setting Writer Rates: It Costs Money To Make Money by Men with Pens (aka The Original Pen Man) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Setting Writer Rates: It Costs Money To Make Money by Men with Pens (aka The Original Pen Man) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Four Areas to Think of When Building an Online Business &#124; Men With Pens</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money/#comment-11911</link>
		<dc:creator>Four Areas to Think of When Building an Online Business &#124; Men With Pens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money#comment-11911</guid>
		<description>[...] you&#8217;ll also need to spend a buck to make a buck. Right from the start, make sure you have proper funding for web presence and the content involved. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] you&#8217;ll also need to spend a buck to make a buck. Right from the start, make sure you have proper funding for web presence and the content involved. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Freelance Writing Questions: Setting Rates</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money/#comment-1341</link>
		<dc:creator>Freelance Writing Questions: Setting Rates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money#comment-1341</guid>
		<description>[...] writing income, there are two more posts to read. One is from the Web Content Copywriting blog on Setting Writer Rates. See also Rachel Kaufman&#8217;s post on negotiating writing [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] writing income, there are two more posts to read. One is from the Web Content Copywriting blog on Setting Writer Rates. See also Rachel Kaufman&#8217;s post on negotiating writing [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jordan Richardson</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money/#comment-1339</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan Richardson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money#comment-1339</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the writer&#039;s union you mentioned covers freelancing. There are several writer&#039;s unions, essentially, but freelance writing is a sort of &quot;take your life in your own hands&quot; type gig, as we all know.

Given your interpretation of &quot;sad,&quot; which matches mine, you would think that acceptance of low rates is relative to how badly people need the money. So, therefore, they are obviously going to have to accept low rates to put food on their table.

I also agree that *most* buyers, not all because I have experience with exceptions, will shop by price. I essentially said as much when I talked about the reality of capitalism. Low prices, in a capitalist free market system (regardless of the particular trade, as we could be making toys and the same things would happen while we lose jobs and contracts to people in India), are the rule of law.

I merely suggested some ways that could combat those ideologies in *some* cases, as they&#039;ve worked for me. Magazines, for example, tend to dispatch work by quality. I&#039;ve worked on a few e-zines that, while price was important, were certainly looking for high quality work as opposed to $1 articles.

You have to frame the &quot;low prices&quot; argument, supply and demand and all that (which again, I supported in my post), in the right context. Keyword articles, SEO articles, and other things deemed especially &quot;easy&quot; work will certainly go for lower prices if the buyer can find lower prices. As mentioned, I don&#039;t begrudge people for taking that work if they can do it. Part of free market systems is the choice of where to work, etc. BUT higher quality pieces, like articles for magazines or prominent websites, etc., will not *merely* go for the lower price. Quality has a factor, so if you can offer that quality they look for, you can play in that game with competitive rates.

Supply and demand, especially in this context, will always exist as long as people need to eat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the writer&#8217;s union you mentioned covers freelancing. There are several writer&#8217;s unions, essentially, but freelance writing is a sort of &#8220;take your life in your own hands&#8221; type gig, as we all know.</p>
<p>Given your interpretation of &#8220;sad,&#8221; which matches mine, you would think that acceptance of low rates is relative to how badly people need the money. So, therefore, they are obviously going to have to accept low rates to put food on their table.</p>
<p>I also agree that *most* buyers, not all because I have experience with exceptions, will shop by price. I essentially said as much when I talked about the reality of capitalism. Low prices, in a capitalist free market system (regardless of the particular trade, as we could be making toys and the same things would happen while we lose jobs and contracts to people in India), are the rule of law.</p>
<p>I merely suggested some ways that could combat those ideologies in *some* cases, as they&#8217;ve worked for me. Magazines, for example, tend to dispatch work by quality. I&#8217;ve worked on a few e-zines that, while price was important, were certainly looking for high quality work as opposed to $1 articles.</p>
<p>You have to frame the &#8220;low prices&#8221; argument, supply and demand and all that (which again, I supported in my post), in the right context. Keyword articles, SEO articles, and other things deemed especially &#8220;easy&#8221; work will certainly go for lower prices if the buyer can find lower prices. As mentioned, I don&#8217;t begrudge people for taking that work if they can do it. Part of free market systems is the choice of where to work, etc. BUT higher quality pieces, like articles for magazines or prominent websites, etc., will not *merely* go for the lower price. Quality has a factor, so if you can offer that quality they look for, you can play in that game with competitive rates.</p>
<p>Supply and demand, especially in this context, will always exist as long as people need to eat.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money/#comment-1340</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:33:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money#comment-1340</guid>
		<description>Hey Jordan - there is the National Writers Union for writers who live in the United States. I don&#039;t hear much about them, though, so I don&#039;t think they do any miracles.


As for &quot;sad&quot;, that was in reference to the fact that some people need the money *that* badly.


Sad, to me, is when I see the local homeless lady pushing her garbage-filled cart down the street while muttering to herself and brandishing a stick, or the guy who sleeps on the school steps at night, roots through the garbage cans and gives his dog the first choice before eating his findings. I remember that there are many people who would be thankful for money of any kind.


But I disagree that acceptance of low rates doesn&#039;t aid to keep rates low. You can bang about the quality argument all you want with a buyer. Their response will usually always be, &quot;But I can get it cheaper elsewhere.&quot; Buyers shop by price first. If they can get it cheaper elsewhere, they will.


While this may not be a major factor in low prices staying low (you brought up some good factors), the law of supply and demand is certainly one of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Jordan &#8211; there is the National Writers Union for writers who live in the United States. I don&#8217;t hear much about them, though, so I don&#8217;t think they do any miracles.</p>
<p>As for &#8220;sad&#8221;, that was in reference to the fact that some people need the money *that* badly.</p>
<p>Sad, to me, is when I see the local homeless lady pushing her garbage-filled cart down the street while muttering to herself and brandishing a stick, or the guy who sleeps on the school steps at night, roots through the garbage cans and gives his dog the first choice before eating his findings. I remember that there are many people who would be thankful for money of any kind.</p>
<p>But I disagree that acceptance of low rates doesn&#8217;t aid to keep rates low. You can bang about the quality argument all you want with a buyer. Their response will usually always be, &#8220;But I can get it cheaper elsewhere.&#8221; Buyers shop by price first. If they can get it cheaper elsewhere, they will.</p>
<p>While this may not be a major factor in low prices staying low (you brought up some good factors), the law of supply and demand is certainly one of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Jordan</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money/#comment-1328</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money#comment-1328</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t that the nature of business everywhere, though? For some people, $1 is a lot of money considering the work they do, especially if they aren&#039;t from North America and aren&#039;t able to get other jobs. I don&#039;t begrudge somebody for trying to put food on their table and the low rates are the inevitable and inexorable results of a capitalist system in a constant state of flux.

So low rates for writers, $1 articles and such, are not resultant of the people taking those articles because the people taking those articles likely need the income. I don&#039;t find it &quot;sad&quot; in the sense that they shouldn&#039;t be taking those articles and should find higher standards. I find it sad that people are forced into those positions in the first place. But all over the working world, by and large, there are crappy jobs for crappy rates of pay. It&#039;s no different that it should be that way when it comes to freelance writing, especially when there are no governing wage requirements imposed on companies and no organization to freelancing.

The other aspect of this is the experience factor. People with poor language skills are not going to be paid top dollar for their work in any field that requires English writing and communication. That&#039;s just a fact. Poor quality work tends to have poor quality rates of pay, so companies have this expectation (that they&#039;re going to be outsourcing and not receiving high quality work) so they pay referential to their expectation. If the work is of a higher quality, that is to say that &quot;you&quot; as a freelancer can prove it and have an impressive resume, I believe there is enough high quality work out there.

When I first started writing articles, I was amazed at the notion that I was actually getting paid for it. I would do an article in about 15 minutes, fresh and relative to the pay, and would get paid about $3. People would bicker over the reality of this situation on various forums, as there are others like me that are fast typists and fast researchers. The work was relative to the quality of pay: not amazing but not shoddy. In the end, I&#039;m making $12 an hour by and large and it&#039;s not a bad chunk of change for what was, to me, easy work. So that&#039;s all relative, too. If it takes someone three hours to do a 500-word article, as it would take my wife and many others I know, even a $10 rate for that article is going to seem crappy. However, if that someone can do two or three 500-word articles in an hour, that rate isn&#039;t quite so bad.

So what to do? Do the faster workers who can benefit more from low rates simply pass up on easy and relatively quick jobs? Or do those that need the money, however &quot;sad&quot; it may be, pass up on that work so as to hypothetically &quot;raise the bar&quot; for the rest of the industry? I&#039;d say not. The reality is that the companies won&#039;t pay top-dollar for easy work and the majority of the work out there is easy work, keyword articles, SEO content, etc. If companies don&#039;t find workers to take their work on one forum, they&#039;ll go to another until they do. Corporations never raise pay rates unless they absolutely have to, so with no governing body, union, or any other organizational ideology for freelancers (because that would make us *not* freelancers), things simply won&#039;t change all that much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t that the nature of business everywhere, though? For some people, $1 is a lot of money considering the work they do, especially if they aren&#8217;t from North America and aren&#8217;t able to get other jobs. I don&#8217;t begrudge somebody for trying to put food on their table and the low rates are the inevitable and inexorable results of a capitalist system in a constant state of flux.</p>
<p>So low rates for writers, $1 articles and such, are not resultant of the people taking those articles because the people taking those articles likely need the income. I don&#8217;t find it &#8220;sad&#8221; in the sense that they shouldn&#8217;t be taking those articles and should find higher standards. I find it sad that people are forced into those positions in the first place. But all over the working world, by and large, there are crappy jobs for crappy rates of pay. It&#8217;s no different that it should be that way when it comes to freelance writing, especially when there are no governing wage requirements imposed on companies and no organization to freelancing.</p>
<p>The other aspect of this is the experience factor. People with poor language skills are not going to be paid top dollar for their work in any field that requires English writing and communication. That&#8217;s just a fact. Poor quality work tends to have poor quality rates of pay, so companies have this expectation (that they&#8217;re going to be outsourcing and not receiving high quality work) so they pay referential to their expectation. If the work is of a higher quality, that is to say that &#8220;you&#8221; as a freelancer can prove it and have an impressive resume, I believe there is enough high quality work out there.</p>
<p>When I first started writing articles, I was amazed at the notion that I was actually getting paid for it. I would do an article in about 15 minutes, fresh and relative to the pay, and would get paid about $3. People would bicker over the reality of this situation on various forums, as there are others like me that are fast typists and fast researchers. The work was relative to the quality of pay: not amazing but not shoddy. In the end, I&#8217;m making $12 an hour by and large and it&#8217;s not a bad chunk of change for what was, to me, easy work. So that&#8217;s all relative, too. If it takes someone three hours to do a 500-word article, as it would take my wife and many others I know, even a $10 rate for that article is going to seem crappy. However, if that someone can do two or three 500-word articles in an hour, that rate isn&#8217;t quite so bad.</p>
<p>So what to do? Do the faster workers who can benefit more from low rates simply pass up on easy and relatively quick jobs? Or do those that need the money, however &#8220;sad&#8221; it may be, pass up on that work so as to hypothetically &#8220;raise the bar&#8221; for the rest of the industry? I&#8217;d say not. The reality is that the companies won&#8217;t pay top-dollar for easy work and the majority of the work out there is easy work, keyword articles, SEO content, etc. If companies don&#8217;t find workers to take their work on one forum, they&#8217;ll go to another until they do. Corporations never raise pay rates unless they absolutely have to, so with no governing body, union, or any other organizational ideology for freelancers (because that would make us *not* freelancers), things simply won&#8217;t change all that much.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money/#comment-1337</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money#comment-1337</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve stopped looking for work on forums because I was constantly underbid.

The only good thing about $1 articles is that they are usually shabbily written, and most of the writers who will work for those rates speak and write very poor English. Eventually, the client gets the hint that you really do get what you pay for and comes looking for quality writers with reasonable rates. :D

I still get my name out there on the forum profiles so that when they are ready to find a decent writer, my name is on the list, but bidding on projects is just a waste of time lately. It really is a shame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve stopped looking for work on forums because I was constantly underbid.</p>
<p>The only good thing about $1 articles is that they are usually shabbily written, and most of the writers who will work for those rates speak and write very poor English. Eventually, the client gets the hint that you really do get what you pay for and comes looking for quality writers with reasonable rates. <img src='http://menwithpens.ca/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I still get my name out there on the forum profiles so that when they are ready to find a decent writer, my name is on the list, but bidding on projects is just a waste of time lately. It really is a shame.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money/#comment-1338</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 17:23:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money#comment-1338</guid>
		<description>Depends which auction site you frequent, I&#039;ve found. GetAFreelancer, Guru, WriterLance and Scriptlance seem to be bad ones for low rates, with GAF taking first prize and Guru a real close second.

Rent-a-Coder has more opportunity, but there is an unspoken threshold that buyers cling to.

iFreelance and Elance are the best I&#039;ve seen yet, with Elance being the best out of the two.

There are plenty of others (Directfreelance, off the top of my head), but my personal experience with those is fairly limited.

Feel free to add more spots to look for quality gigs - I&#039;ll do a writeup on them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Depends which auction site you frequent, I&#8217;ve found. GetAFreelancer, Guru, WriterLance and Scriptlance seem to be bad ones for low rates, with GAF taking first prize and Guru a real close second.</p>
<p>Rent-a-Coder has more opportunity, but there is an unspoken threshold that buyers cling to.</p>
<p>iFreelance and Elance are the best I&#8217;ve seen yet, with Elance being the best out of the two.</p>
<p>There are plenty of others (Directfreelance, off the top of my head), but my personal experience with those is fairly limited.</p>
<p>Feel free to add more spots to look for quality gigs &#8211; I&#8217;ll do a writeup on them.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda Evans</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money/#comment-1336</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 17:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money#comment-1336</guid>
		<description>Yes James, I guess your right it&#039;s just a pity that these $1 writers don&#039;t realize that they are having a disastrous effect on the rest of us.  We can&#039;t possibly complete articles for $1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes James, I guess your right it&#8217;s just a pity that these $1 writers don&#8217;t realize that they are having a disastrous effect on the rest of us.  We can&#8217;t possibly complete articles for $1.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money/#comment-1335</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 14:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menwithpens.ca/setting-writer-rates-it-costs-money-to-make-money#comment-1335</guid>
		<description>Plenty of people work for $1. Some live in countries with economies that make that dollar a small fortune. Some people assume that&#039;s the going rate and just don&#039;t know any better.

Some really need the money that badly. Kinda sad...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plenty of people work for $1. Some live in countries with economies that make that dollar a small fortune. Some people assume that&#8217;s the going rate and just don&#8217;t know any better.</p>
<p>Some really need the money that badly. Kinda sad&#8230;</p>
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