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  1. Maree says:

    Very nice summary pulling together recent posts on sales techniques and how people feel about marketing.

    It does seem that using social networking tools (eg facebook, twitter) to market is an emerging trend. It is interesting how this will change the shape of these tools as people become more skeptical of all the things that people are trying to promote there.

    I try to be quite careful what I retweet that has a marketing flavor. Not only do I ask myself if this a good article about a worthwhile service, but is it something that is likely to be of interest / value, to the distinct group of people who follow me.

  2. I am hearing ya!
    Social Media is becoming like a noisy conference where everyone is talking at the same time and no one is listening. I can hear the noise constantly and yes if everyone is selling who is actually buying? So my next step as an honest to goodness down to earth gal is to get out the camera and get some videos going…when you can see the sincerity in a video it really cuts through the noise of the verbal chatter!

  3. Kelly says:

    James,

    *sigh*

    Yes, I hear you. The fatigue, the mistrust, and the pulling away from folks who we once thought we understood. Taking a closer look at new faces. Wondering what their angle is.

    All true for me, but in reality, all part of a continuum. Since we stopped buying from the five shops in town because they were the only places to go, buying what they had because it was there… since the dawn of advertising, really, marketers have been engaged (to an extent) in destroying trust. Replacing it with promises and ideas plucked from our own dreams.

    Maybe it’s not polite to point that out. Especially since I believe in the good kind of marketing, since I absolutely believe we’ve all got to sell every day, and since I begrudge no one their living. It’s still true. We destroy a little trust during the sales process, but we replace it and grow it when we demonstrate our worth.

    We get less sales because we won’t be like those sleazy bad guys.

    Thats what gets to me. We do have to make sales to live. We can do it ethically. We can offer such valuable work that a trusting, Wow! relationship is built once the sale’s been made. But somehow, somehow, we’ve got to stop being afraid of making the sale.

    As I said earlier this week at MCE, “I want to gather memories and experiences with this money. I will gather memories and experiences with this money. Will they be yours? It depends. Can you get over the feeling that you’re pushing me into something I don’t need—and guide me to something I do want?”

    Hmm, hmm. Always making me think, you are.

    Regards,

    Kelly

    Kelly´s last blog post…Experience Design, Bloggy-Style

  4. Well, there’s always common sense and your gut instinct to go on.

    Deep down inside we all probably pretty much know already whether we truly need or can truly afford something. At least I do.

    We all have our tolerance for risk too – how much we’re willing to give up to try something new.

    As far as relationships go, real is always best. My gut usually tells me when someone is not being real (and like everyone else, I don’t care for fake friends).

    I don’t think relationship building is a bad way to do business – but the relationships should be genuine. The relationship builder should truly care about the people that he or she is building a relationship with. So much so, that he or she would be unwilling to steer them in the wrong direction, even if it meant losing a sale.

    Laura Spencer´s last blog post…(Un)Healthy Comparison

  5. @ Laura –

    The relationship builder should truly care about the people that he or she is building a relationship with. So much so, that he or she would be unwilling to steer them in the wrong direction, even if it meant losing a sale.

    That’s the thing, I think. There are some people that I can see working really hard on building relationships, but behind the scenes, they care about one thing, and it isn’t the people they’re selling to. It makes me a little sad, really.

    I think losing sales actually ends up gaining sales – it’s one of the reasons we rarely promote anything here unless we *know* it’s worth it. We’d rather pass on the money so that when we do say, “Hey, this is really good,” people can believe us.

    @ Kelly – Hehe, you and I and our jaded views… with good reason. No one gets jaded unless events have happened to cause that skepticism.

    I agree with you that it’s very tough – it’s a double-edged sword. We hate to be sold, we have to sell. I’m really interested in everyone’s thoughts today.

    @ Elaine – After long encouragement and much resistance, a friend of mine got on Twitter. He did all the right things, down to the letter. Yesterday he wrote me and told me about his experience so far.

    Not good. “Where’s the conversation? Everyone’s just whoring links! I talk out to people, they don’t answer! They’re too busy trying to get me to buy something or look smart!”

    Yeah.

    @ Maree – I go all the way or nothing at all. I’ll chat and converse and discuss and be real for weeks. Then on a day where I really feel something is worth it or I need to market, I’m not insidious. I’m flat out, “CHECK IT!” I do one solid run of blatant, obvious, cheerful buy-mes that people can clearly see (and have fun with it), and then I stop. No more selling.

    Because I don’t want to be the guy that no one can take at face value, you know?

  6. This post for me highlights exactly why I don’t trust a lot of Internet Marketing – they don’t actually care about a relationship. They care about the sale.

    On the other hand, I buy from you because I see how much you want to help me and I therefore want to help you in return by paying for your help (because you know that I like to see your kids being able to eat).

    Alex Fayle | Someday Syndrome´s last blog post…Help Me Cure Someday Syndrome: the Someday-Busting Affiliate Program

  7. This is why I trust bloggers more than people who’s list I’ve opted into to get some free report.
    Everyone can fake it for a little while, but bloggers show up week after week and give content, advice, and comments. That takes effort and a real personality will show up one way or another.
    If there’s not consistent quality in the blog posts, or the posts are 200 words of ramblings just to have something posted, you can bet that they’re takers not givers.
    Good blogs are a give/take kinda deal. Just by doing a random scroll back through the archives, you can get to know the amount of quality that someone gives away on a weekly basis.
    If it’s good stuff, then they’re generally not “anything for a buck” kind of people.

    Henry Bingaman´s last blog post…6 Questions To Start That Big Idea

  8. @ Alex – My children thank you. They do enjoy eating. :)

    @ Henry – I’ve found blogs to be more representative of the genuine caring, yes. If it’s a month of pitches and buy this, I’m gone. If it’s a month of great content and helpful stuff, I’m more tempted to think the blogger gives a damn.

    I am *definitely* pretty damned disgusted with newsletter lists. “Sign up for great stuff!” Yeah. I get a pitch every two to three days in my inbox, which takes up my time, which takes up my money. Forget that.

    I will say there are some that offer *specific* newsletter opt-ins, like Itty Biz. When you sign up, you’re signing up for something very specific and you know that you’ll get information only relevant to that particular product or course.

    THAT, I appreciate. Her newsletters don’t constantly barrage me to buy this and that and everything. She does newsletters well.

    Unfortunately, many don’t.

  9. Very timely post for me.

    Yesterday I rewrote the sales page for an e-book that targets college instructors who want to write for college textbook publishers. I removed nearly all the sales elements one finds on most Internet marketing sales pages and went with a more traditional approach.

    And to combat skepticism I stressed the money-back guarantee.

    Regarding products I buy over the web, I am very selective. I make sure it’s something I really need now, and I don’t ever do the really expensive things. I also look for a guarantee in case the product is a dog. (No offense to dogs; I have golden retriever.)

    And like Herny Bingaman above, I think having a good blog builds credibility.

    John Soares´s last blog post…Memorial Day Hiking: What I Do When I’m Not Writing

  10. I understand the viewpoint. However, if we all look at just being out there to make a living then that is all we are going to have. We have to be offering a service or product which will actually help someone with a problem they are trying to solve. And we have to believe that we are doing just that, otherwise it will become apparent that we are just trying to make a living.
    The key is to be doing something that you like to be doing and that you also know will help someone overcome a problem. The more you help a person, or the more people you help will then better allow you to make a living. But that is first done by providing some help.

  11. Hey James….this is for your friend
    I have found a way to create relationships on twitter that works. Nearby tweets gets you connected to local traffic and gives you a reason to talk. In the past week I have opened the door to 2 great local relationships.
    It is all about being creative and cuttting through the chatter by adding real value!

  12. James, you guys are excellent at this:

    “I think losing sales actually ends up gaining sales – it’s one of the reasons we rarely promote anything here unless we *know* it’s worth it. We’d rather pass on the money so that when we do say, “Hey, this is really good,” people can believe us.”

    I’ve never doubted for a split second your integrity. Your promotion of products isn’t just few and far between, whenever you are behind something it is also the PERSON you stand behind, not just their affiliate commission. A template to follow for sure.

    Writer Dad´s last blog post…Serial and Milk: Available Darkness – Chapter Six

  13. James,

    I think you are caught up with false dualism of “being good and honest vs making money” like many people are. I often see it in your posts and have been wondering how I can point it out, because I’m afraid your business and finance are affected by this thinking.

    Offering products and services that help people makes money. Marketing is all about letting people know such great service exists. They are delighted to hear the good news and line up to get them, with their wallet in hand. This is how I want my business and its marketing to work, and even though in a small scale, it’s happening. I have several weeks worth of waiting list, clients who have paid in advance and waiting patiently for their turn.

    Interestingly, the returning rate (clients coming back to have more service) has increased dramatically as I increased my fee. It seems those who pay more seem to appreciate it more. They see the value more clearly. So again, being helpful is not against making money. It’s integrated.

    In the New World, work will be all about authentic self expression and we will be just doing it without trading it for money. But we are not quite there yet, and the way to get there is not about putting down money and money making endeavors as low and dirty but by integrating them to the fun of work.

    I hope this helps. . . as long as you see money / marketing as bad and against your noble nature, you will struggle because on the deep level, you want to struggle.

    Love, Light, and Truth,
    Akemi

    Akemi – Yes to Me´s last blog post…Creating Your Life And The New World

  14. Bob K says:

    There’s a certain level of marketing I can tolerate as part of the blogger-reader relationship, and then there’s stuff like the “launch” technique that’s been going around. It’s got a faint whiff of sleazy with MLM undertones, though that might be because its effin’ everywhere I look.

  15. @ Bob – I think that’s it too. There’s a level of acceptance, of tolerance and then of how much we can hold our nose.

    @ Akemi – I think you have me pegged wrong (you wouldn’t be the first; don’t worry about it). I have no issues marketing and making money. But I would be a fool not to have an opinion on how to go about it. The ‘live and let live’ philosophy works only to a point – if we never speak out about something we feel isn’t right, then a lot of atrocities in the world would have continued.

    What bothers me is that this is not a case of letting people know about a good product or service to buy. People are promoting products they don’t believe in and sometimes haven’t even seen – they see a high affiliate payout and that’s it, away they go. That’s pretty poor marketing, in my eyes. If you don’t mind someone pounding away at you to buy a product they’ve never even looked at, then… well, okay :) Doesn’t work for me, though.

    I’m not sure where the question of raising rates to match value comes into it though… you’ll have to explain that one further, I think.

    @ Writer Dad – You raise an interesting point. But I will say that I’ve nodded approval at good products sold by people I don’t respect – if it’s useful, valuable and good for me (or others), then… well, I’ll say so if asked. I may not market it or tell people about it much, though, of course.

    @ Elaine – I had a bit of a surprising experience with a local business myself, so I approve of that one – good tip, there!

    @ Kevin – The only time I’ll not complain about someone trying to earn a living is when they really, really, really, really, really need to do something not very cool so that they don’t have Really Bad Things happen.

    But I agree that in the majority of cases, earning a living can be done in a way that leaves everyone feeling good about it. Yes?

    @ John – Now I’ll have to go have a look at that page :)

  16. It’s like you were reading my mind (or my Twitter feed) yesterday — it seemed like everywhere I looked, people were telling me how they were out to help people and change the world — and for a small fee, I could be in on it.

    No more starving artists! Just pony up, and we’ll tell you how.

    Change the world through giving! Oh, and buy our e-book.

    Stop putting off your dreams! For only a small fee, of course.

    This has been a week of unsubscribing for me, too — weeding out all those newsletters where I just wasn’t quite sure if it was a right fit, but giving it one more chance. I have really hit the saturation point, where I just can’t shell out for one more ebook or teleseminar or training course without seeing some real, concrete change from the ones I’ve already paid for.

    I totally get that everyone needs to make a living — I do, you do, they do. But it was like yesterday hit my limit, where it was just one too many tweets that were just a link to a sales page, one too many people claiming to be changing the world and helping people, when all I could see were the strings attached leading to price tags.

    I don’t really know what the solution is, but I can tell you that it does depend on where I come in on your cycle. Some people already have my trust because they gave me value and let me see their sincerity (like you, Havi and Ittybiz) — but some people shove sincerity in my face with a “buy now” button attached, and expect me to buy both.

    Amy Crook´s last blog post…The Vendor Client relationship

  17. @Amy
    I think I recognize two of those lines… ;) One of them intimately.

    Brad Leclerc did a great post on my blog a little while back on downloading addictions. http://somedaysyndrome.com/2009/04/addicted-to-downloading-procrastinating-with-ebooks/

    It doesn’t matter how much I might want to help, if you’re not going to get any value out of the product due to time or other commitments, then I don’t want you to buy anything. I’m all about no clutter and that includes buying too much that you’re not using.

    The challenge for people who are selling is to find that fine line between selling and pushing (because of course we need to get some money back for the hours we invest in helping other – after all eating is a good thing ;) ) – but of course since that line is different for everyone, what might seem like the salvation of the century to someone might come across as a slimy money making tactic.

    Oh, the joys of marketing…

    Alex Fayle | Someday Syndrome´s last blog post…Help Me Cure Someday Syndrome: the Someday-Busting Affiliate Program

  18. Another interesting point you raise Amy – if someone has been hanging out on a blog for a long time and built up trust, a “please buy my stuff” is a sincere move, but if one of the first things you see on a blog is a “buy my stuff” post then it could easily come across as insincere because there’s no trust factor.

    I’ll have to pay attention to see how I react to blogs I’ve been hanging out on for a long time and those that are new to me…

  19. Some thoughts:

    1. Timing.

    People are launching a lot right now because this is their last chance till fall. Statistically, nobody buys anything in the warm months. So a lot of people are doing their last ditch at once.

    2. Politics.

    If James writes an ebook and Alex, Kelly, Amy and I all promote it, James will naturally want to reciprocate. If Alex, Kelly, Amy and I all come out with a product at the same time, James is in a bind.

    If he does what he wants to do, which is promote the cool stuff his friends are creating, he looks like a sleazy dirty sellout. If he doesn’t, he feels like crap for not promoting the cool stuff his friends are creating. And if we can be frank, the chances of Alex, Kelly, Amy and I doing him any favors in the future decreases.

    3. Finances.

    Bloggers are broke and scared. They’re creating products because they’re desperate for money or financial security. So products that might otherwise not come out right now are coming out sooner than perhaps planned. There’s also a subconscious fear on the part of the blogger/product creator that people’s money is going to run out. The customer buys from Alex, Kelly and me, but doesn’t have any money left for Amy.

    4. Compounding.

    As we follow more people on Twitter, we are exposed to more and more promotion. Same with blogs, newsletters, and so on. A lot of bloggers are finally getting their head around affiliate marketing and going loopy with promotions. Amy tweets Kelly’s product, I tweet Kelly’s product, Alex tweets Kelly’s product, and our followers blame Kelly.

    One important thing: As Alex said, we have to make sure we’re careful of who we’re tarring with the brush of over promotion. We cannot blame Blogger G because we’re exhausted by Bloggers A through F. Not fair. And we have to be extra nice to the blogger creating their first product. It’s not fair to be unsubscribe from Alex’s blog because people like me are sending too much email.

    Naomi Dunford´s last blog post…How To Make Your Blog Not Suck So Damn Much

  20. In the words of Fox Mulder, “Trust no one.”

  21. Kelly says:

    Naomi,

    Thank GOODNESS.

    It all still revolves around me.

    ;)

    Kelly´s last blog post…Experience Design, Bloggy-Style

  22. At some point you have to decide that school is out and get moving on the things you have learned. ( or purchased) Trust yourself . Compound those things and they will net real results.

    Avoid the echo chamber.

    I am kind of full up too. Purging my lists. Very inner inner circle , otherwise it’s a distraction. And I am saturated.

    And as much as I know we all have to sell, in my field selling is very subtle. Sometimes not, but in my niche it really is. As Kelly said so well about experiences and memories, well everything I do is about that. The very last thing I would ever want to do is taint that pool. And yet, my paintings are for sale. My drawings are for sale. Collectors know this. They want the good stuff . And to get the good stuff they actually have to know me. Or be referred. Or know a dealer that I entrust. Now there’s a pool I REALLY am protective of.

    So yes. I will walk away from a sale. I will also give people enough of myself to see if maybe we are a good fit. So most of my selling is showing up, letting people in a little bit. Giving them a sample if you will.

    And if I see something really fabulous, yes, I will tell people about it. But you better believe it would be something I would want to own or have or do or be or ….. someone I really like…it’s a reflection of who I am isn’t it?

    So I am not sure if that’s great marketing or selling. But it feels right.

    Janice Cartier´s last blog post…Snail Mail Art Stamps and Margaritas

  23. @ Kelly — But of course. (I tried to type a French accent there, but couldn’t swing it. Mais oui?)

    Naomi Dunford´s last blog post…How To Make Your Blog Not Suck So Damn Much

  24. Bea Sempere says:

    First time here and I enjoyed this read. This article comes at a tough time in life where people are juggling whether to pay the electric bill or put food on the table. Skepticism is a main focus in today’s times where people are losing homes putting the blame on banks, and jobs they’ve committed so many years to.

    I believe sales people have certain characteristics, their ‘on-faces,” in order to profit. They can schmooze all they want. You don’t have to like them, but they do need to stand behind their product and promises. Intuition and a little research will help in the long run.

    This is a very nice site and article.

  25. James,

    Oh, sure, that is bad marketing. I was surprised when I first found out about it. Someone offered to write a fake testimonial for my service in exchange to getting me promote his stuff. I spit at him.
    I was also surprised when I published my little eBook. I offered a complimentary copy to my affiliates, because I want my affiliates to know what they are promoting, and some never wanted to see it!

    Akemi – Yes to Me´s last blog post…Creating The New World, Part 5 Power

  26. There is another side to the coin. There is so much talk about guilt trips regarding selling, but what about the expectation that everything should be free? Is that right? Would people go into shops expecting to walk out with free goods all the time? In a society where we are so far removed from self reliance, people buy most of what they want and need , and that requires sellers. The important thing is to find a balance. I think for every hard-sell merchant, there is a person who just takes and whines over even the smallest of add discretely placed in a side bar.

    judyofthewoods´s last blog post…Changes to Subscriptions to Judy of the Woods

  27. @ Akemi – That’s what I’m talking about. “You have a course? Affiliate? Awesome, I’m in.” Blech.

    The post I ran on Monday saying how I believed in Marketing for Nice People? I wouldn’t write a word on anything I haven’t seen with my own eyes, and even then, it had better be good.

    @ Bea – I don’t mind the schmooze. But I want a believable relationship. If someone’s gonna schmooze me, he or she had best to it right :D

    @ Janice – You have cool marketing tactics, you coy thing, you. I’m all for that, ha! But damned if it don’t fit, eh?

    @ Kelly – Only when I say it doesn’t revolve around me.

    @ Naomi – That was an excellent comment. I agree with all your points and live them plenty every day (minus the scared one. I fear nothing!… Except flying. )

    I’m interested in your thoughts on the question the post raised. What about bloggers like you and I who work hard to build real relationships, genuine ones, and then have it all fucked over because the people who build false relationships to sell their stuff have ruined it and increased skepticism?

    @ Amy – One sentence you wrote struck me: “I have really hit the saturation point, where I just can’t shell out for one more ebook or teleseminar or training course without seeing some real, concrete change from the ones I’ve already paid for.”

    There are a lot of people who think that, and they’re highly skeptical of new releases and launches. But…

    They’ve never actively put the information they bought into good use for a reasonable period. How on earth can they expect returns just by downloading, having a skim and then… doing something else?

    That’s a problem. Skepticism can be created through false misrepresentation, and I see that all the time. “I downloaded soandso’s book and nothing happened!”

    “Did you DO everything the book said to do?”

    “Um…. Okay but soandso’s course really sucked! Don’t buy it, it’s a scam!”

    “Have you logged in, read every PDF and listened to every mP3 and then put that education to work in your own business?”

    “Well….”

    People can buy all they want. But they don’t put in the legwork, ain’t nothin’ gonna happen, you know?

  28. @James- Not fitting is a good way to move on to the ones that do fit well,yes? I think some wise Pen Man told me that.

    There’s something in the air this week.. some very thought provoking articles here and from Kelly , Naomi and Sonia. Good reality checks.

    Janice Cartier´s last blog post…Snail Mail Art Stamps and Margaritas

  29. Hey Akemi,
    Thanks for sharing your experience about affiliate products.
    My biz partner and I were discussing the whole thing about sharing a copy of our product with our affiliates when they sign up last evening. I can’t even imagine having something attached to my site that I did not like, use and trust. I am also discouraged that someone would have your affiliate link and not know a thing about the product they are promoting. Yes I know that money makes the world go round, but what happened to the relationships…so we are right back to the point of this discussion “relationship Building”.

  30. I think part of the problem is that not many have a unique voice anymore. As you mentioned, there are so many copywriting courses out there that teach people a certain way to get a message across that it is diluting the message by turning it into something we have heard a million times before.

    People are looking for the step-by-step template to make money instead of doing the harder work of finding their own unique voice. They expect that if they do the same things as those who have gone before, they will have success. And they try to replicate it. In the end it comes off sounding fake, just like if you put on a different speaking voice you sound fake unless you a brilliant voice actor.

    The latest offer from a very well known blogging personality illustrated this for me. Without naming names, he was promoting a book by another well known blogging personality calling him the “godfather” of blogging and promising a step by step template to replicate his success. That turned me off – I don’t care if you’re the Godfather or Mother Teresa. You’re you, no one else. And no will ever gain anything by trying to be you.

    Patrick Vuleta – Lawfully Green´s last blog post…Brand New Environmental Law Site

  31. @ Patrick – Part of my gripe with relationship building is exactly that: the Relationship Template.

    When you get a newsletter update from three different people, and they almost look identical in style, tone, formatting and setup – hell, they could be the same person – my first thought is, “Huh. Y’all took that Frank Kern course, eh?”

    DELETE.

    It’s fine to learn how to build relationships and communicate with people to improve your business and sell your products. It’s also fine to take courses to learn how to do that. But if you become a robot spewing off the “checklist” because you can’t appear to be a unique, genuine person… I have problems with that.

    Whew. Small rant, there!

  32. Solomon says:

    I can’t agree more that the society is already skeptical. That feeling shouldn’t deter us in building and believing in relationships. By that, we lose precious company. After all, what is money for to have a good laugh and be happy. A true relationship gives you more happiness – tells you ways to get over it – and be there for you, for a long long time.
    I think businesses have forgotten this fact. They want quick fixes and want money right away. That smacks of greed, which is a costly mistake to do.
    I’m a keen observer of businesses where there is genuine interest in the customer and someone who is ogling at your wallet.
    I found a shop owner gave my son’s shoes replacement ever after using them once, and when the flap has come out.
    I feel the internet is full of those gimmickry, and that is finely reflected in the article by James.

    Solomon´s last blog post…Ride the crest of the writer’s learning curve!

  33. Tim says:

    This post and the comments touch on something I have been experiencing lately.

    A lot of offer I am seeing is as mentioned, follow my success step by step. But as has been said we all seem alike and there is no “person” to build a relationship with because all look alike, write similar and do that same things.

    I have been thinking that being yourself and trying it on your own in your way may be the only way to be true to yourself and let the other person see a real person that he builds a relationship with.

    The question is it work and if so how long will it take? But as James said we are all skeptical, me included, there may be no other way.

  34. This is so true! it is really hard to trust especially with the internet. Lots of people are using the wonders of it to scam others and gain profits. It is still better if you know who are you dealing with and trust no one but yourself!

 

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