I’m puzzled. A large group of writers frown down on job auction sites, and I’m not quite sure why. It’s probably another symptom of the Great Divide, the canyon that separates writers who prioritize work and writers who prioritize art.
- Some say that job auction sites are for small-time writers.
- Some feel the auction sites only offer cheap work and low rates.
- Some believe that auction sites are a rip-off, charging writers money with no guarantee of gigs.
- Some feel that auction sites don’t cater to the very people that keep them alive: the service providers.
- Some believe that auction sites are beneath them and that using them shows they can’t get work elsewhere.
I disagree with all those statements. Does it matter where you get work as long as you’re working and earning a fair rate? Who says that auction sites equal low-quality providers? There are just as many poor writers applying to ads on Craiglist or cold-calling webmasters.
And what’s wrong with paying someone to centralize clients with jobs on a board open for bidding? With all the promotion of outsourcing going on, does it not make sense to pay someone to save you time? Why would these boards not take a fee for their troubles?
I do know that some providers don’t use job auction sites because of fear. They fear their writer peers will look down on them. They fear their peers will see their rates and laugh or gasp in shock. They fear being labeled. They fear ridicule.
They fear the Great Divide.
It’s clear that there are some terrible job auction sites out there. It’s true that the better ones still have issues or irritations. There’s no argument there.
But what is it about job auction sites that sets writers’ teeth on edge or makes them look down their noses? What is it about writers that make some hide their identity on job auction sites to be able to freely bid for work?
I counseled someone to do just that, recently. He had mentioned having trouble finding work and wanted my advice before he decided to give up on being a writer. I was surprised – the writer is a brilliant one already and with more potential in store.
But competition is stiff and it can be extremely difficult to get a steady full-time income going. Harry and I put in a good deal of effort and time to have the successful six-figure business we have now. Had we been alone trying to achieve the same, we probably would have each given up.
“Get a membership on an auction site,” I suggested. “Nothing big or fancy, but get something.” I mentioned the costs and the risks involved. I also mentioned that I knew there was work and potential.
Then I added another bit of advice. “Create a profile just for the boards,” I suggested. The writer had an active, growing blog. “Keep it to yourself. Don’t let your peers know about the profile.”
Here I was, encouraging the perception that having a profile on a job auction site is a shameful thing. And yet, I believe differently. I think there is nothing at all wrong with job auction sites and I agree with their use. I know many writers who have successful businesses and earn good income from them.
So what is it? What am I missing? Why do some writers not condone job auction sites? Why are they not more encouraging of their peers’ effort to land steady work? Why is there a Great Divide, and why do I believe one thing but say another?
Let me ask this: Would you use a job auction site shamelessly and proudly? And if not, why?
Great topic, James. I’ve been thinking about this a lot recently, as I’ve been dabbling with various job auction sites without really throwing myself at them whole-heartedly. I’m slowly realising that, if you want to win work on them, it seems that you simply have to use job auction sites boldly and be proud about it!
The evidence is there if you search for it: the top earners on sites such as Elance are all the ones with exceptional profile pages, video interviews and well-rounded work samples. The pattern across the 5-figure earnings band appears to be the same: want work? Don’t be shy about it!
Nick Cernis’s last blog post..Todoodlist: The eBook on Paper Productivity, Simplicity and Fun!
The job auction sites are a whole different world. The fact that someone from a developing nation with poor English skills will charge $3 for a 500-word article makes writing job sites look like the bottom of the barrel.
The thing is, James, you’re right: The same writer could apply to CraigsList postings. The problem is that it will never be announced if he gets the job, and other applicants aren’t listed either.
Bidding for work on writing job sites puts a writer, psychologically, in the $3 category when they should be charging much more. It is less about what others think and more about what the writer thinks of himself. How many potential clients are going to check those sites if they don’t already know they exist? And do you really give a rat’s ass what another writer thinks of your rates? Anyone who’s got the spare time to ridicule you or laugh at you for taking the work you can get needs to take a fracking walk.
To break free, a writer has to know his own worth, demonstrate his value to potential clients at job auction sites, and never work for less than what he’s worth. I’ve done plenty of work for job auction sites, and I make no bones about it. It wasn’t the most lucrative work, but it helped feed my family.
Am I now past the job auction site phase of my career? Sure. My rates have increased substantially since the early days. But, especially for new Internet writers, these sites are a tremendous resource. I have nothing but admiration for folks following their dreams and trying to make a go at professional writing. Screw the rest of it.
Sorry, became a bit of a rant there. Might have to make that a blog post…
Bob Younce at the Writing Journey’s last blog post..Banging My Gong – The Brand, Part 4
@ Bob – Hold on, cowboy. I’m not talking about the $3 job. I’m referring to jobs with budgets of thousands of dollars. I never, never encourage low-rate jobs to anyone and I’ll be the first to point out which sites never to visit.
But a quick browse of Elance does show some very lucrative and very high-scale jobs – what’s wrong with those?
Clients do know the job sites exist. Type “freelance writer” into a search and most of the returns are for job sites. The bad – and the good.
But why are you past job auction sites? Why do you not continue to work there if there’s a chance at lucrative work? What makes a job auction site a “phase” to get through and get over?
@ Nick – Exactly. There are some huge earners on Elance. I’ve been watching and looking. I see the money exchanging hands. I see the earnings of some writers and what they’re getting paid to do. And they are *proud* to be on Elance.
Why aren’t writers?
@ James – let me clarify. I can see my ramble wasn’t quite informed by sufficient amounts of caffeine.
In summary, here’s what i was trying to say:
* The job auction sites have many $3 jobs that should be avoided at all costs.
* Bidding on jobs where others have bid $3 can be damaging psychologically.
* Writers should never charge less than what they’re worth.
* Clients aren’t going to go to job sites to see if a given writer has ever charged less than what they’re offering (I could be wrong on this one, it just doesn’t seem reasonable to me, though).
You’re right about being “past” that. That was a dumb thing to write. It’s just like you giving the “Don’t let your peers know about the profile” advice. Even for advocates like me, there is still some inherent bias, I think. Shame, maybe. I dunno. Will have to think about that more.
I haven’t been back to those sites in a long time, mainly, because I’ve got enough steady client work to keep things going. Some of that steady client work originated on those sites, by the way. If and when my regular work slows, I would absolutely go back.
Great reply, James. I was talking out of my sleep-deprived ass and you called me on it, got me thinking about what the hell I was trying to say. Good form!
Oh, and I like the “cowboy” remark. Very witty.
Bob Younce at the Writing Journey’s last blog post..Banging My Gong – The Brand, Part 4
Yes, great post James. I’m not (at the moment) in the market for this kind of thing, but I’ve been browsing these kinds of sites and thinking, “hmm, something for the future”.
I would tend to look at it as just one tool in the tool box, one possible resource of many. It probably isn’t a good idea to completely ignore these sites.
(Then again, I don’t have any experience with them so what do I know…
)
Brett Legree’s last blog post..the road ahead.
I use a job auction site AND my rates are aligned with the Writer’s Markets rates for 2008. In fact, when I started my business, I used the site to build up a professional writing portfolio (having come from a corporate career in sales and marketing) and build relationships with clients. I have many loyal and large clients as a result of marketing myself through a job site. And trust me I am not writing $5 or $50 articles. I have found the sites to be an extremely efficient marketing system. I could drive around and cold call or I could log on and place 20 quality proposals in a day and know that it will net several jobs. Are the sites perfect? Nope, is anything really?
@ Karen – I was hoping you’d come comment
I’ve seen your profile, and I know that Elance has been very, very successful for you. I’ve heard good things from others on your work and they found you there.
So answer me this, considering that you’re coming at the situation from the other side of the coin: Any negative comments from other writers? Have you found that job auction sites harm your reputation or credibility in any way? What are the cons and drawbacks? How do your peers perceive you?
@ Karen: I guess another question I would have, as someone who hasn’t used these kinds of sites before, is what sites have you found to be really good?
(If it’s sort of like the “secret fishing spot”, you don’t have to give it away, I’ll just dive in – but any insight you can give would be valuable.)
Brett Legree’s last blog post..the road ahead.
@ Brett, I find Elance and Guru to be the best job auction sites around. I personally use Elance and it does have it’s fair share of low budget projects but there is gold in them thar’ hills. Another tip is if you sign up do so in both Writing and Sales and Marketing. Many writers only sign up for Writing and miss golden opps in Sales.
@James, there is a bit of snobbery among the traditional writing market. I’ve laughed when I’ve read negative articles in Writer’s Digest or other writers pubs but while they’re struggling to publish the Great American Novel, I’m actually working. I’m a writer but I approach my writing as a business. Yes, I too want to write the next Harry Potter and be on Oprah but in the meantime I’m pretty darn fond of food and shelter.
@ Karen: thank you very much for sharing – I have had a look at Elance and there seems to be some good stuff in there for sure, I’ll also have a look at Guru – and thanks for the tip!
(I love what you said about writing the next Harry Potter and being on Oprah, don’t we all…
I know I do!)
Brett Legree’s last blog post..the road ahead.
@Brett, if I can ever help just reach out! Oprah’s got her own network now so surely there’s room on the program for us, eh?
@ Karen – Yes. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. People whine and cry over not having enough work, but they pass up opportunities because they feel they’re above job auction sites. There’s something wrong with that picture.
This isn’t about arTEESTic talent. Writing is often a business involving an exchange of money and I feel it should be treated as such. I don’t *get* snobbery at all. I *get* success, money and business growth. If it’s honest, legal and good, why turn up noses to it?
@ Brett – Elance has my vote hands down. Guru had a very bad reputation but I see them making changes to become the Elance competitor. Very nice.
Ones to avoid: Get a Freelancer. Scriptlance. Writerlance. If it *looks* cheap, it *is* cheap. If they send you spam emails to join up, avoid them. If you browse jobs and can’t see anything that even looks remotely professional, run like hell.
You know, I should post a profile on Elance and experiment to see what happens. Hm.
@ Karen: thank you, I won’t be shy (as James & Harry know, I’ll bang my head on the wall for a few minutes, then say “help”) – and I agree, there’s definitely room for us on Oprah’s network. I like Oprah.
@ James: thanks for the tips as well, and I agree with you 100 percent. While I’m writing because I enjoy it, eventually I plan to make some money from it! So why not look at all avenues?
Brett Legree’s last blog post..the road ahead.
@James – I’m curious as to why someone should hide their profile on a bidding site? I’m at Elance and advertise as Ellen Wilson. Should I come up with some other profile?
@Brett – It is hard to get established at Elance, but you should give it a try! I use it as just one venue among many for obtaining work. It’s a good place to get started. Many providers were disgruntled with Elance when they did the big switch over with the connect system in December. I joined in December. It was not a good time to join.
@Karen – That is an excellent tip about using the sales category in addition to the writer’s category. I have also seen jobs posted for writers in the Web category also.
Ellen Wilson’s last blog post..The Birds Are Singing!
@ Ellen – Acceptance by peers is important to people. Unfortunately, many writers are not accepting of their peers, and the criticism received by those who look down on auction sites can give a good kick to someone’s self-esteem. I don’t understand the Great Divide, and I don’t like it.
That said, I am aware of it, which is one reason why I have – to date – suggested that writers use bidding sites under aliases or separate names. But the more I think on this matter (hence, this post), the more I realize that I’m contributing to the Great Divide and enhancing the problem.
Personally, I think auction sites are a *great* way to land work when used properly and when well chosen for quality. I think I’d really like to turn the situation around and encourage good writers to take over the auction sites instead of turning up their noses and leaving them to cheap writers.
We are what we make of our industry – so let’s make it good.
Oh, and Bob, I agree:
“And do you really give a rat’s ass what another writer thinks of your rates? Anyone who’s got the spare time to ridicule you or laugh at you for taking the work you can get needs to take a fracking walk.”
@Brett – Start small and work your way up. It’s all about that little rating tag that follows you around on Elance. Once you get some work it becomes easier to obtain more. I’m at the point now where I’m debating if I want to stay at Elance or switch to Guru. Many providers use both.
Ellen Wilson’s last blog post..The Birds Are Singing!
James,
I agree we are our industry, and we must elevate it. But what do we do about buyers who want us to work for pennies a pop? I won’t bid on the ridiculousness, but many writers do, so it leads to wading through many silly job postings.
You aren’t contributing to the Great Divide, but encouraging us to explore it.
Ellen Wilson’s last blog post..The Birds Are Singing!
Thank you. That means a lot to me, because I believe we only get better through exploration and looking at all sides of the coin.
As for buyers who want us to work for pennies a pop, we are business professionals. We thank them politely for their interest, express a little sympathy that our rates are above their means, and we cut them loose. Simple.
My personal experience with job auction sites has not been positive. For me, it takes up to much of my time to land a job from an auction site. I barter back and forth with a potential client, only to be passed over for a cheaper bid (and my rates are dirt cheap for here in the US). Most of the clients I have encountered on job boards are only interested in the price, not the quality of the writing.
I would use a job auction site shamelessly if I believed it was a worthy investment of my time and if the site was not clogged with bids like $1 for 750 words.
@ Ellen: thanks for your advice and encouragement. I am definitely going to check Elance out – along with the umpteen other things I have to do
but it is something I feel I’m meant to be doing.
@ James: I think you & I spoken about this before, and I sure hear you – when I used to build and fix computers, people would sometimes say “but I know some kid who can do it for $20″.
Fine. Thanks for your interest, my rates are $50/h, please feel free to go ask that kid. (You’ll be back. Or maybe not.)
Brett Legree’s last blog post..the road ahead.
You know, this brings to mind my experience with finding a video company to convert a windows video into a DVD. I spent four days scanning pictures and putting together a slideshow with music for my dad’s memorial service, only to find that the equipment in the room we are holding the service runs on a Mac.
I narrowed my choices down to two companies. One, a local guy working in his basement that would charge me $10, and a video production company with a secretary and a full staff that charged $50. For me, I was willing to pay the higher price to get quality work and I liked the confidence and professionalism the staff exuded during the phone consult.
I think you can charge more as long as you have the image, confidence, and skill to back it up. I think presentation makes all the difference in who lands the big paying jobs.
Great question! In fact I’m going to stumble this post because I think a lot of writers will be interested. I see this discussion on forums often.
I don’t currently use auction sites simply because I am getting enough work from other sources. In fact, I have a list of job leads that I never seem to get around to following up on.
I do still have a skeleton profile at several auction sites and one of them e-mails me daily.
When I did use an auction site for a job a few years ago I was able to find a great project with decent pay. It was a great experience and I got positive feedback.
However, I was also contacted by a potential client who, upon further examination, was up to no good. (I refused that one quickly.) Another potential client said that I had the bid, but when it came time to start work (which required me to access his prototype software since it was technical writing) he delayed the start. After several e-mail contacts, he claimed he was having financial problems and disappeared – never to be heard from again.
So, as you can see, I’ve had mixed experiences with auction sites. If I were getting started, then I might try them. I certainly wouldn’t look down on a writer who found projects through auction sites.
However, for comparison sake, I also haven’t applied to Craigslist jobs. I would if I needed to, though. It’s important to keep that income coming in. (At least it is for me.)
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@ Laura – Hm, you have a point. I’m already too busy. Perhaps I shouldn’t experiment…. or… hm.
Experimentation is good, just keep it in perspective. If it gets to be too much, you can ditch it because it’s proving you’ve already got enough work coming in from other sources.
On the other hand, if it doesn’t pan out, you haven’t lost anything.
No surprise from this group but what great comments! Ellen and I met via Elance and I believe we are proof that there are talented writers who use the site.
I haven’t been bidding much this quarter because I’ve thankfully been too busy, but until I become a billionaire I will likely keep this tool in my arsenal.
Ellen, I echo your sentiment, if I cared what other people thought I’d be starving!
One other thing about rates, those crappy low rate bidders are not my market so their prices don’t bother me. I have a very clear written profile of my ideal client and that’s who I target.
Job auction sites are a great way to get started. Now that I have a steady workload and established list of clients, I find that I hardly use any of my bids each month. Nonetheless, I don’t think I’ll ever stop using Elance.
Sure, there are thousands of poor projects on there, but there are also some very good ones. In fact, my three largest clients are a direct result of Elance.
-One found me in their directory and hired me.
-One hired me for a small project and continues to use me now.
-One is a referral from one of the above.
I honestly wish less people would use it, because sometimes there are so many bids that it can be frustrating to even bother trying…but other times it feels oh so worth it.
Chad’s last blog post..Everything You Need to Be Free
I started my new writing career (still moonlighting) on Elance. It was my first opportunity to write ebooks. It’s not like I could’ve charged top dollar since I was a beginner, but I will tell you, for the little experience I had, I was pleased to get the money I bid for. At that level, it was top dollar for someone like me.
I think that people who complain about sites like Elance are the same folks who complain about all sites. Without getting into metaphysical mumbo jumbo, self fulfilling prophesy is an amazing thing. Put yourself out there as a low ball business person, and no matter where you go, you will get the $3 gigs.
Great article. Going to go renew my Elance account right now!
Sandra’s last blog post..test 12
I had never heard of auction job sites before. Is there a comprehensive list of these sites floating around somewhere? Is there an ebay of the Job auction world? Do they have them for more than just writers?
Adam’s last blog post..The Age Of Conversation Bum Rush (For A Very Good Cause)
@ Adam
Good ones:
elance.com
guru.com
ifreelance.com
Middle ones:
rent-a-coder.com
Poor ones:
getafreelancer.com (or is that get-a-freelancer.com)?
writerlance.com
There are tons of these. Google “Freelance writer” or “freelance writing jobs” and you’ll fine a whole list of auction sites.
And yes, they cover all types of industries, especially Elance and Guru.
@ Sandra – LOL talk about me convincing someone!
@ Chad – Yup, I know many people who’ve been found through just a profile and not even bidding.
@ Harry – Um, are you giving me permission to experiment? *grin* Can you handle the consequences of saying, “Go James. Do your thing.”
It would seriously be interesting to try, though, as an established pro team with reputation. I wonder what the results would be. Hmmm… blog fodder?
Hey, Elance!! Will you give me a free subscription to come experiment on your services and blog about the results?
@James: I already know what the outcome will be and I’m braced for it. Go ahead, bro, knock yourself out. Your Voice of Reason will be observing and let you know when it’s time to drop the experiment.
Thanks James. I’ll check them out. I have used Guru but not the others.
Adam’s last blog post..The Age Of Conversation Bum Rush (For A Very Good Cause)
In my mind, it boils down to this: What do you value?
In he long run, I want to pick my clients. I want to work with clients that see me as a partner, a valuable resource, a long-term resource. That takes work. It takes time. None of us start that way. And we all have to pay our bills.
So starting out through an auction site to get experience and good samples? No problem. Using them to help supplement what you’re doing and ensure you can pay the mortgage? Makes perfect sense.
But for me, long-term happiness comes from evolving away from that model and pursuing clients that are aligned with your values. That requires that you gradually move away from auction sites and pursue clients on your own through referrals, direct mail, networking and other promotional strategies that, admittedly, take time.
Unfortunately, I see too many writers stay in that auction circle and never venture out. It wouldn’t be a problem if they were happy. But I see many that are miserable and struggle to pay their bills.
So if you’re happy, great. But if not, maybe it’s time to add other elements to your promotional mix.
I have used Freelance Work Exchange and (more recently) Elance. Both brought me work when I wanted or needed something extra or different. I don’t rely on them for the bulk of my work, by any means, as I am more for pitching clients (like Ed says). But I’m not ashamed to say I’ve used those types of services. Freelancers, in general, can be so silly sometimes…
Amy’s last blog post..When Good Clients Ask for Bad Stuff (or, Why I’m at the Poop Conference)
@ Harry, are you sure you want to let that tiger out of the cage? LOL!
@ Ed, you’re right that one time gigs are no way to build a business but I have formed great long term relationships with companies through Elance. If you do a project and call it done and do nothing to nurture the relationship and sell follow-on work well you’ll start to fill like a rodent on a treadmill.
@ Amy, Freelancers can be so silly!
@ Everyone: this is a very informative day at MwP, you’re going to make a freelance writer out of me yet…
Think I’ll check out Elance and others in detail tonight…
Brett Legree’s last blog post..the road ahead.
@Karen: Even tigers need to run free once in a while
@Karen: Absolutely. No matter how you acquire the client, no one-time deal is worth the trouble.
My main point is this: If you go the Elance route, know why you’re doing it and when and how you’ll use it. Know the pros and cons. Then make a decision. Don’t just use it as your main source of work if your values are not aligned with this approach to securing business.
@ Ed – I agree with you. Never put all your eggs in one basket and do go for what fits you best first over feeling like you’re stuck looking in one place.
I also agree with you in that it’s an approach to business and not necessarily bad business. Bidding sites are a resource, tool, whatever you want to call them. I don’t feel they limit writers in any way and they can open up some major doors. So can Craigslist. So can cold-calling. So can all sorts of methods.
I think to many people disdain methods of approach versus the end goal: not eating Kraft Dinner every night.
(I don’t, but… um… I eat it by choice… not every night, though.)
When I first started freelancing I visited a few bidding sites and I did not like what I saw there so I haven’t been back. The pay was offensively low and on some sites the employers had free access but the writers had to pay to use the service. In my wold, job seekers don’t pay to view open positions. Plus, it’s another ID and password that I have to track.
Having said that, I haven’t tried all of them and in particular I haven’t tried Elance. I’m interested in securing long-term clients who are willing to pay for quality writing. I feel like I gave those boards a fair shot and they didn’t deliver. I’ve had far better results through Craigslist and the two best clients I’ve gotten to date came in through my blogs.
Melissa Donovan’s last blog post..Jeff Buckley: Grace (Album)
I don’t think it has anything to do with this great divide you speak of.
As you probably are aware, I don’t love bidding sites. My experience with them wasn’t positive. Even though I had years of writing experience and references, I didn’t have any clients within the bidding site itself. Because of that, I had issues getting the higher paying gigs.
A couple of times I was told I had a lot of nerve bidding my usual rates because I wasn’t yet rated within the site. When I pointed out my experience, showed links to my work and let them know I’d be happy to provide references, I was told it didn’t matter – I had to start out with the $2 gigs.
No thanks.
Besides, it’s just a pain in the butt for me. All that bidding and waiting….I could be doing other things. To each his own.
@ DebNg – But writers propose and wait with other jobs as well… nothing is instantaneously guaranteed to pan out.
I get what you’re saying though, and it makes sense *because you have experience*. I am well aware that many people have had bad experiences with bidding sites just as many have had great success.
THAT, I get, because you’ve tried and it didn’t work out for you.
But you can’t deny there is a Great Divide in writers, and that also many of the writers on one side diss auction sites without even having tried them themselves. They are often attacking their very peers based on opinion and preconceived notions alone. THAT, I have issues with.
I also agree that if you haven’t got an established reputation and the reviews on the site itself, it could be tough to get jobs. (Goes to prove that people do make selections based on feedback from other clients.) I don’t know the answer to that one, though.
I think it also depends on which site a writer chooses, too. Like I mentioned, some are really, really bad ones to work on, I think.
@ Melissa – Same goes to you. You’ve tried, had experience and I respect that. I just want to say one thing: I do know many writers secure very long-term jobs off one fast gig at auction sites. Repeat business is always good. Doesn’t matter where you get it from, I think.
Actually James, I don’t agree with this great divide thing – just blogged about it too. I really don’t see it. I think we choose the types of writing we like best. Yeah, there are some who don’t want to do what I do, but really, I don’t see much in the way of snobbery.
While I don’t want to offend, Deb, your blog is one of the places I’ve seen it most in the past. That said, things have changed around your place and much of the snobbery that used to go on is now gone.
But I do welcome the debate and the disagreement is friendly on my part. I’ll look forward to the comments over at your blog (keeping in mind that NO ONE is going to chime up and say, “YES! I’m a SNOB!”)
I don’t understand where terms like snobbery come into play. Are snobs the writers who say they won’t do $2 articles or who publicly frown on bidding sites?
*confused*
Melissa Donovan’s last blog post..Jeff Buckley: Grace (Album)
Maybe I’m dense because I just don’t see it. Now, we’ve had discussions about preferences and wages, but I don’t see the snobbery.
In relevance to the post, I’ve seen writers indicate they’d rather be seen dead than ever have to resort to finding work on auction sites. I’ve read that *often* in comment sections. I’ve read writers commenting they’d never resort to writing web content.
I’ve read writers who’ve mentioned they’d never stoop so low as to write for $1. That’s a debateable snobbery, because I don’t think they’re seeing it as a potential “eat or die” situation – but “eat or die” is a situation many people live with. Some people can’t wait to get a few dollars, with good reason.
@ Deb, the snobbery does indeed exist. There are established writers who assume that anyone who gets work through an auction site is not a “real writer.” I’d also like to point out that although I use the auction sites, I’m not a “web writer.” I have done online content for some clients as part of an overall marketing campaign. I actually work with many corporations developing content for print which has included magazines and books. Much of the negative perception really has stemmed from writers writing 100 “articles” and other writers assuming that anyone using auction sites is a cut rate hack. I’m glad that you are a snob but I can personally say that is not a universally held view.
Edit – I think Karen meant to write “glad that you are *not* a snob.”
I don’t like it when writers of any kind accuse other writers of not being “real” writers. Artists and musicians do the same thing to each other. There’s a place for everyone. I would agree that such attitudes are somewhat snobbish.
As for people who “would never stoop to doing $1 articles,” that’s just having standards, in my opinion. Where I live, if I took $1 or even $5 per article, I’d be living in a cardboard box. The rates are relative to the cost of living. I’d certainly hope nobody would think me a snob because I want four solid walls, a door, and a window to protect me from the elements.
Melissa Donovan’s last blog post..Jeff Buckley: Grace (Album)
Melissa, I don’t see that as snobby. But I do think it is snobby when writers bash other writers who do take those jobs. The whole “bringing down the world” argument I find as snobby. Whether it comes from a print writer or a web writer. I have my own “I won’t work for less than x” standard, but I also don’t think of telling other writers what they should earn. There is a lot of snobbery all around, I think. The real writer argument gets thrown at me a lot. That is a whole other divide as I see it.
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Thanks James! Yes, Deb you are *NOT* a snob. Oh gosh, that could have ended badly.
In my defense, I do have a fever but this discussion was too good to miss. 
Thanks for “having my back” James.
@Amy, I’ve only had it thrown at me once. It was a couple of years ago when I was encouraging a friend to try blogging. “That’s not prestigious,” she said, “real writers frown on that kind of thing.” Well, guess who has a blog now? I’ve always held that the Internet is the future for writers, which is why I’m here.
I don’t know if writers who take on those low pay gigs are driving down the market or not. I would not criticize them for what they do (it’s their choice). But here’s my thinking: if you are only able to get $1 per article as a writer (and let’s assume an article takes about half an hour at best), maybe you’re in the wrong industry. The fact is, you can earn more at a fast food joint (at least that’s true where I live). To me it’s just math and logic and if putting food on the table is the concern, McDonald’s is going to trump the $1 writing gig every time.
I better understand what James meant by snobs now. I think it’s a matter of attitude. $1 articles may not be my cup of tea, but I can’t know someone else’s situation or reasons for taking those gigs so who am I to judge?
P.S. Amy, when are you getting on Twitter?
Melissa Donovan’s last blog post..Jeff Buckley: Grace (Album)
*redirects conversation away from low-paying gigs and back to discussion on auction sites and the Great Divide* That’s a whole other issue entirely, folks.
Heh. Thanks for not thinking I’m a snob.
@James – I suppose you’re right about the work involved, though auction sites always seemed like more work for me.
I forgot to list another reason I’m not keen on bidding sites – the fees. Either the site gets a perecentage of the writer’s take or the writer pays a monthly fee. Some sites have a membership fee AND take a percentage. Add to that the PayPal fee and I just don’t find it cost effective – especially for those who bid low.
@ Deb – There are fees involved, but what I’m thinking about this is that it’s far better to pay a fee and cut down on the time that you could be doing paying work as opposed to opting for free and spending hours sifting and searching.
On the other hand, places like yours that do the sifting and searching cut down on that time, but take a look at the Tea Blogging job that went up on your site – the guy got upwards of … what, 2,000 applications? From what I see on Elance, competition is less than 30 applications per job and sometimes only 5. Odds are better, it seems.
Now, let’s assume everyone bids normal writer rates that make sense. For the fees and rates, everyone has to be realistic about that. Elance seems to charge about $20 a month for membership. That’s nothing. That’s less than a half-hour’s work.
They also take 8.75% off jobs. Okay, so say you earn $500 a month (and that’s really low-end, I think). You’ll pay about $43 bucks. Let’s call that 1 hour’s work.
Elance sends cheques instead of going through PayPal. No charge.
So for $500 a month, it costs about $63 bucks, or at MOST, two hours worth of time. If you’re skimming and scanning craigslist or cold-calling webmasters or whatever, can you (general you) say that you’re spending less than two hours a month to land jobs?
Now, granted, that’s for someone that is actively looking for work and not those established enough not to have to look. That’s also not taking into consideration the time to check the job boards and put up proposals, but a friend of mine says it takes her less than a half hour a day to do around five.
Another writer I know who uses Elance only takes jobs that pay over 1k or an average of 60$ an hour and then some.
I dunno, but the math isn’t coming out looking like job sites are a bad thing. Maybe I’m missing something.
@James – Regarding the tea guy – he put his ad on at least five boards that I know of – so the response isn’t typical over an individual who only posts an ad at FWJ.
Elance is only one bidding site though. Check out a bidding site like Rent-a-Coder and you’ll see what I mean.
Now. When you talk about offering a normal bid that makes sense. I rarely see this happening. it’s my experience that the people who bid against the same jobs on which I bid offered ridiculously low wages. It was very rare to see a bid above $5 for any gig. True the potential to earn more is there but that doesn’t mean people are doing so.
And really, I’m not actively looking for work right now so maybe I’m the wrong person to be talking about bidding sites.
My experience is that they’re not cost efficient and a well-established writer can’t get a decent paying gig without drastically lowering her rates. Not worth it, in my opinion.
A good and necessary discussion.
I’ve used elance before to find someone to write web content for me, when I was under pressure. I found a good writer who did charge decent rates and I noticed that many others also pay well.
But some of the people who pitched for the job didn’t have a single writing sample to show me. That told me they probably weren’t writers at all – just people who’d heard they could make money on elance. And I think this may be what puts some writers off elance – they simply don’t want folks thinking they’re the same as these amateurs.
Now, before I looked on elance, I found another auction type site through a forum. Some people on the forum were charging next to nothing for their work and doing that type of work on a full-time basis. The standards were low, but who’s really going to churn out their best work when they’re getting $10 for 1000 words?
I know some people would do this type of work to build up a portfolio, but they’d probably be better off doing a guest post on a popular blog.
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So it seems that the problem isn’t job auction sites per se – the problem is freelancers who don’t know their own value, who aren’t prepared, who are trying to break into jobs with low skills and who aren’t serious about their business.
We’re blaming a resource for writer jobs when the true blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the writers themselves.
While it’s clear that there are buyers who want something for nothing, that’s not always the case and not always in high ratios.
@ Deb – I’m focusing on Elance because I have the belief that it’s the best of all sites out there (not perfect, but the best). Rent-a-Coder falls in the so-so category for me. I’m not even considering the crap sites like GetAFreelancer.
As for snobbery, here’s a perfect example in a comment made by Phil over at Freelance Switch:
He’s “stooped for a few of these jobs.” Perception? Auction sites are beneath a writer. But Phil goes on to say:
Hm. Contradictory? I think so.
@ Deb again – Yeah, I think it is a good discussion. We should all talk about issues like these more often and turn them over as much as possible. Maybe we’d actually change the world
Tamara and I have been quite upfront about the fact that we’ve used Guru.com pretty extensively. It was a great tool for us to get started, and now that we’re established, we are able to get some pretty good jobs through there. I think sites like this should be considered as just another of the tools avialbel to freelancers.
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Well, I’m late to this game, but if anyone has snobbery issues with elance, I’d like to note my awesome gig I got from there where I am editing curriculum materials on Shakespeare, Donne and etc, other English Lit. greats…and they said my English degree would get me no where…lol…This was an Elance client and they’ve used me 5+ times in the last year…pay is great, too. I asked them why they chose elance to find a writer/editor and they said “It was the first one that popped up in Google.” There ya go.
I won a rare decent-paying project with these guys. It paid $750.00. My client put $250.00 up front with GetAFreelancer. I left it there until I finished the book. They took $75.00 out of the $250.00 leaving $175.00. So they got their full commission…
Fortunately for me, the client paid the balance in a check directly to me.
I say fortunately as GAF has blocked my account…No reason, they’ve been paid but guess what?
I can’t reach them…I can’t sign in and that means I can’t find out what’s going on…
And they are looking like flakes, theives or ???
I’d like to get my $175.00
Any ideas…
Vern